S-300 vs F-117A

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Just one thing I would like to add: it wasn't a person that shot it down, it was the whole unit working as a precisely coordinated team.

 

 

4th: dancing farmers on f-117 parts on CNN

don't forget we have a regular army... some of the people who shot it down might be farmers too ;)

 

Once the two F-117's were hit, USAF said 'screw this', told NATO they're gonna change the routes and not tell them what they're doing and that's that.

From there on, the only evidence of F-117's flying was the destruction they caused.

Yup... the unit then moved to F-16s :D

 

 

Btw, you should totally believe the 'spy' story. Many people inside NATO dissagread with the war and inside info was plentiful on the Internet. One AAA unit working near where I live was so bold to relocate just 300m from the spot they were last night and they got info it will be targeted tomorrow and they wanted to try and catch who ever was assigned to destroy 'em. They didn't manage to do anything, but their last location was a 5m hole in the morning :D

 

A friend of mine once found info that two tunnels that run after a bridge that was destroyed earlier will be targeted one night. He sent the info to the military and they removed the AAA trucks that were inside. Two nights after that the tunnels were destroyed. He was pissed with a commander that left three soldiers inside the tunnel to "guard it" and all three were injured :(. Btw, he found the info by searching "novi sad targets" in altavista :D (google wasn't so popular back than :D)

[GGTharos]

Hehe, pretty amazing stuff :)

[Groove]

By dancing farmers i just recall the CNN pics...

 

My informations where that it was three radar sites ( SA-3 ) afaik and that it was a visual shotdown by a fighter ( MIG 21 afaik ).

 

But as i dont have any site to backup my informations you win :)

 

Seriously, that were the first told infos about this incident...

[Vekkinho]

Hey let's get back to topic.

 

Like I said, S-300 system seems slightly biased in LO/FC. I mean, shooting down a F-117A 30 km out is bit unreal. I know it's the world's most complex SAM but c'mon! F-117A flying a notch w/o any chaff deployed is unreal too.

 

But here's another thing!

 

I made another mission with F-117A, this time there wasn't any SAM or AAA threats around. I armed that Nighthawk with pair of GBU-10s in payload editor and set pilot skill to excellent.Tonight's target was a control tower. But when Pilot1 opened weapon bays I saw no bombs inside. I double checked them in payload editor but they aren't equipped in the mission. He kept approaching the target and 2 or 3 miles out pulled up vertical, Immelman & RTB...

 

What's now going on?! How come those GBU-10 do not appear in the mission?!

[Guest IguanaKing]

Vekkinho, any chance you can post an attachment of the .mis file you created so we can have a look?

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

On the other hand, B-2 "Spirits" are Strategic Bombers that don't go deep and low inside hostile airspace.

Well, which airplane was then used to bomb Chinese embassy?

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

I thought that F-117 is quite invincible and the only one ever shot down was by accident (shot in the dark) or by SAM commander's experience and IQ. Of course, I talk about Allied Force Operation that happened back in '99 over the skies of former Yugoslavia.

Integrated Yugoslavian air defenses were overwhelmed due to a numerical and technological advantage of NATO forces. There were times when a hundred of NATO airplanes were in the air with no air to air challenge. Therefore SAM (radio wave) systems could not be used at all.

 

NATO was targeting soft targets and flew “smart” (high and fast) over defended targets.

 

That’s why only one F-117 was shot down.

 

You and I don’t know how the F-117 would work against advanced S-300 system. One thing we know for sure, F-117 is not invisible and even weak and overwhelmed ground base air defense force can take one out of the sky.

[Guest IguanaKing]

This is definitely an interesting thread. I just tried an F-117A and an A-10A against an S-300PS system and the results were...well...strange and inconclusive. I started off at an airfield that I placed a S-300PS site about 40km from, and I was engaged in both cases about the same distance from the S-300PS. So, although I believe a radar as powerful as the 64N6E (Big Bird) could detect an F-117A or A-10A equally well at that range, I have a hard time believing that the 76N6 (Clam Shell) tracking radar, and 30N6E (Flap Lid) engagement radar could do so equally with those two aircraft. Yet, in LOMAC they do. I fly until I am fired upon, invert, pull, and roll to evade the first missile. I then hug the ground to break contact while flying away from the radar, while having 2 to 3 more missiles fired at me which all miss. Then I make another run in, and I am engaged once again right about at the end of my runway closest to the S-300 site. I did notice, however, that the RWR doesn't show any radar emissions in the F-117A until pretty much the same time I am being engaged. In the A-10A, the RWR goes nuts almost immediately after I go wheels up and come above the radar horizon. The default cockpit for the F-117A flyable is that of the Su-27, so maybe there is a difference in the Russian RWR, but this seems like a bug to me. Its almost as if the 64N6E site is omniscient and says "Oh yeah, that's an F-117A coming, so I won't radiate until he's close enough for me to see him." I should be seeing his emissions REGARDLESS of whether or not he has detected me. Its almost as if its the SAM radar that received the benefits of a low RCS, rather than the aircraft that actually has it. "I'm flying an LO aircraft, therefore, it will be much longer before I see the radar that is searching for me." WTF? :doh: :D

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My informations where that it was three radar sites ( SA-3 ) afaik and that it was a visual shotdown by a fighter ( MIG 21 afaik ).

 

Sorry... no 21 flights during the war at all (ok... maaaybe some relocations). They couldn't do much in the air, so they were being saved for the ground war (if it began) to do some CAS if they could. At the moment CAS (against KLA) was done using lighter Galeb and Orao planes that were better at flying low low.

 

As for the radars it could be that it was spotted by others on the way to the place where it was shot down. But no triangulation... and no data-links. NATO would loooove datalinks. Our army learned all too well how dangerous unsecured radio comms were in the earlier wars. There's an example of an unexperienced soldier yelling "heavy artillery fire 1 km left from my position". The other side was once a part of that same army so all radio equipment was the same on both sides. Naturally, they just corrected their fire 1 k to the right and... you know. :noexpression:

[Vekkinho]

OK I'll upload F-117A.mis file at LockOnFiles. I removed all SAM and AAA sites from the map to make ingress route for F-117A as slick as possible but like I said, F-117A can carry only GBUs and there are three types in LO payload editor (MEInit). But when I start a mission F-117A does open it's weapon bays at attack waypoint but one can clearly see there are no bombs inside. AI pilot still continues to approach the target but all of the sudden pulls Immellman and heads home! I also checked MEInit (thru LOPE) and yes, there are GBU-10, 12, and 27 in it's payload. So how come they don't appear in the mission?!

 

On the other thought IguanaKing please contact me via PM (please write down your E-mail) so I'll send you .mis file to check it out. It might be quicker than posting it to LOFiles and wait for authorisation...

 

 

So, although I believe a radar as powerful as the 64N6E (Big Bird) could detect an F-117A or A-10A equally well at that range, I have a hard time believing that the 76N6 (Clam Shell) tracking radar, and 30N6E (Flap Lid) engagement radar could do so equally with those two aircraft. Yet, in LOMAC they do.

 

Like I said F-117A is too "visible" in LO, you just said that it has similar RCS to A-10. On the other hand, they both lack onboard radar and their radar emittance is thus reduced. But try flying CAP with Su-27 and search for a F-117A. AWACS sends 'picture clear' report and you have a hard time locating Nighthawk with your onboard radar and EOS. But Hogs are easy to find with same systems...

 

The default cockpit for the F-117A flyable is that of the Su-27, so maybe there is a difference in the Russian RWR, but this seems like a bug to me. Its almost as if the 64N6E site is omniscient and says "Oh yeah, that's an F-117A coming, so I won't radiate until he's close enough for me to see him." I should be seeing his emissions REGARDLESS of whether or not he has detected me.

 

If you have active Radar or airplane somewhere in the map they all appear with their radars active. There's no radar toggle for AI in LO so things like "I won't emit until I lure him in" are impossible. You should detect radar spikes on your RWR as soon as you enter it's detection area. The other thing is the sensitivity of RWR systems for russian and US warplanes. Hog's RWR might be more sensitive than Flanker's and that might be the reason of it going nuts. I'm not certain on this one as I never flew A-10 in LO (nor RL) but there might be some difference.

 

Sorry... no 21 flights during the war at all (ok... maaaybe some relocations).

 

I heard they flew Escort to those Galebs and Oraos that struck Rinas and Tuzla airbases.

[nscode]

Sorry again, those stories are fiction too ;)

 

No missions were carried out outside the national borders... except the two MiG-29s shot down over Bosnia, but that was in pursuit, and a result of one of many errors the on duty GCI officer had done.

[Vekkinho]

Well, which airplane was then used to bomb Chinese embassy?

 

Christiane Amanpour said it was a Tomahawk. Shot with flak, damaged and unfortunatelly fell on the embassy roof :megalol:

[suntrace1]

@Groove: there we no serbs dancing around crashed plane, you watch too many american movies.

 

@GGTharos: if you give me the right numbers needed to calculate the return for low-frequency radar to follow F-117, I just might take the time off from my diploma to solve them and release them to public :) Seriously, the plane was developed with invisibility in mind - low RCS, low heat signature, low profile. I doubt that in the middle of the night, an S-300 could optically track F-117. My bet goes on radar return, with the help of russian know-how, not familiar before. Russian and serb ties run way deeper then you might think ;)

[Vekkinho]

except the two MiG-29s shot down over Bosnia

 

Two?!:huh:

 

I thought there was one over Bosnia, one over Vojvodina (on the first night) and one over Nish week or two later.

 

Lot of unflyable Fulcrums were left as stationary targets or decoys on runways and there were few MiG-29 mock-up kits that are destroyed.

[Vekkinho]

Russian and serb ties run way deeper then you might think ;)

Not neccessarilly, russian and serb bounds were cut back in '48 when Tito and Stalin had a small disagreement and when Tito asked Americans for help in weapons and finance.

 

SA-3 isn't much of a bargain deal that only "buddy-buddy" russian allies have. It's more like scrap metal that Gorbatchov got rid of in change for some wheat.

 

Russia had and has enough internal problems like Afganistan and Chechnya where they had lot of casualites and losses for a small result (if any). Entire russian VVS failed twice and proved it self weak and headless in those engagements. So carpet-shelling entire Grozny with a mortars worth $100 to get a single man is Russian know-how?!!

 

Modern warfare brings us back to basics! Terorism and guerilla units can't be fought with zillion dollar warplane or SAM but with a club! Take a look at Vietnam, Afganistan, Iraq...there's more dead american soldiers now than during fights with regular Iraqi army!

 

Just let it be and sweep your own backyard!

 

But I suggest we get back to topic...not politics.

[suntrace1]

Not neccessarilly, russian and serb bounds were cut back in '48 when Tito and Stalin had a small disagreement and when Tito asked Americans for help in weapons and finance.

 

That was quickly forgotten when Khrushchev came to power. No grudges because of that on Russian part. And don't underestimate the power of orthodox church ;)

 

OK, enough.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Christiane Amanpour said it was a Tomahawk. Shot with flak, damaged and unfortunatelly fell on the embassy roof :megalol:

And at that time Christiane was married wife of James Rubin, high ranking official in Clinton administration. And a professional reporter who openly said that it is all right to take sides and she took side against Serbs in tragic civil war over Yugoslavia.

[Guest IguanaKing]

 

Like I said F-117A is too "visible" in LO, you just said that it has similar RCS to A-10. On the other hand, they both lack onboard radar and their radar emittance is thus reduced. But try flying CAP with Su-27 and search for a F-117A. AWACS sends 'picture clear' report and you have a hard time locating Nighthawk with your onboard radar and EOS. But Hogs are easy to find with same systems...

 

The A-10 has those HUGE inlet fans which are great radar reflectors, so its RCS should be MUCH greater than that of the F-117. According to your observations, it looks like this is true for airborne radars...even though AEW&C aircraft are actually the most likely to get an early detection IRL. It doesn't appear to apply to the ground-based radar systems, the S-300 site gains and loses lock at about the same distance in the game no matter which of the two aircraft you are flying. Maybe I'll try the same experiment with a smaller radar, like the 1S91 on the Kub, and see if the same thing happens.

 

If you have active Radar or airplane somewhere in the map they all appear with their radars active. There's no radar toggle for AI in LO so things like "I won't emit until I lure him in" are impossible. You should detect radar spikes on your RWR as soon as you enter it's detection area. The other thing is the sensitivity of RWR systems for russian and US warplanes. Hog's RWR might be more sensitive than Flanker's and that might be the reason of it going nuts. I'm not certain on this one as I never flew A-10 in LO (nor RL) but there might be some difference.

 

I figured that was the case, so the RWR in the Su-27 is either porked in the game, or its that way IRL. The whole point of an RWR is so that you can see the emitter long before he sees you. If that's the way the real RWR in the Su-27 works, I feel sorry for the guys who fly those. ;) But I doubt its as bad as it is in the game. I mean...it even has an estimated range feature, which US RWRs don't have. So why have something with that capability if it doesn't give you an early warning? The US RWR is based on bearing and signal strength. Its graphical representation doesn't really give range to the emitter, its more of a "If he's inside this circle he can see me. If he's inside THIS circle he can kill me." kind of thing. So, if anything, it should be less capable than the Russian system. :D

 

BTW, I got your PM. You might try posting the file here though so more of our ME wizards can have a look at it. I tried arming an F-117 last night, and the behavior of the payload editor was definitely funky. I'm not convinced I loaded anything on the plane. Its easy to post a small file like that right on this forum. Just use the "Manage Attachments" button in the "Additional Options" window below the window that has your new post in it. ;)

[Guest IguanaKing]

And at that time Christiane was married wife of James Rubin, high ranking official in Clinton administration. And a professional reporter who openly said that it is all right to take sides and she took side against Serbs in tragic civil war over Yugoslavia.

 

Ahhh :doh: ...so that explains why she says the things she has recently. :thumbup:

 

Edit: BTW...if it WAS, in fact, a BGM-109 that hit the Chinese embassy, then it didn't come from ANY type of plane...regardless of the circumstances that led to the impact. If it was a similar weapon, such as the AGM-86, then it didn't come from a B-2. ;)

[Vekkinho]

OK I'll upload it here...

 

Remember, I haven't tweaked anything in my MEInit.xml so this shouldn't be an issue (all payload settings are default).

 

IguanaKing, you said that your F-117's payload acts funky! What exactly does that mean?!

 

In this mission I only have single F-117A approaching it's designated target which is a command tower at Sochi-Adler AB. It's armed with 2*GBU-27 and you can clearly see those in payload editor. But once it reaches attack waypoint weapon bay doors open and there are no bombs inside. I tried with all three types of GBUs (10,12 and 27) and none of them appear. Total weight of the AC is far below maximum.

 

This is a simple mission, time set to 12:00, weather clear and calm, AI setting of F-115A is excellent. Mission is zipped.

 

Please guys take a look, if those bombs appear during the mission than there's obviousely something wrong with my installation (MEInit).

[Guest IguanaKing]

Heh...pardon the "technical" term. :D What I meant by funky, is that each of the two bombs I load have their names appear in the "saved payloads" window to the left (something I haven't seen before). On the aircraft representation in the payload editor, however, I see no bombs on the aircraft because the bay doors are closed. I haven't tried flying it yet because I need to install the F-117 with A-10 cockpit mod first before I have any definite clue as to what I'm doing with it. I guess I'll make a backup of the new meinit I've been working on, and give that mod a try. It'll also clear up the issue with the RWR.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Yup, the RWR in the Su-27 appears to be porked. I tried the mod that allows you to fly the F-117 with an A-10 cockpit, and the RHAW once again picked up Big Bird as soon as I came above the radar horizon. Once again, I was engaged at pretty much the same distance from the S-300 site, about 40km...and they continued to fire at me some 45km out, in the weeds. So the ground-based threats are apparently not affected by relative RCS of their targets. This is truly sad, since FC and the upcoming BS are supposed to focus more on A2G operations. FC doesn't have it, so hopefully BS will finally correct this problem.

[nscode]

Russian and serb ties run way deeper then you might think ;)

 

Russians didn't even provide us with the info they were bound by contracts, let alone something more. Russian and Serbian people are friendly with each other, but the Russian state never helped us in history.

 

You can see this nicely even in Anna Karenina. At the end Vronsky goes to Serbia with a group of volunteers to help us fight the Turks. That is all the help we ever got - only people willing to help us them selves.

 

 

I mean...it (SPO-15) even has an estimated range feature, which US RWRs don't have.

no, it doesn't... it's signal strength. Just try compare it against a MiG-29 and Su-27 or F-15 and you'll see ;)

[Guest IguanaKing]

I know its signal strength, but it gives you an approximate number. The number seems kind of far-fetched to me, but many forum members have said its pretty accurate. That probably doesn't mean its that wonderful IRL though. :D Me? I don't care exactly how far away the emitter is, all I care about is if his signals are strong enough to detect, track, lock, and kill me. The RWR isn't meant as an offensive system, but it apparently acts that way in LOMAC.

[Pilotasso]

Terrorism can and should combated with multi million dollar hardware (preferrably of surveilance material, not fighters and bombers), but the real problem of Chechnya, afganistan and Iraq were political decisions wich prove to be inadequate as a response of the local nature of the conflict and the culture of combat there in.