DCS: Mi-24P - What we know + Discussion

[Lurker]

Nice catch unknown. Would be kind of weird not having them anyway, they are literally life savers. (If you see the missile trail) 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Lurker

[Rick50]

a security blanket when over hostile areas... no guarantee to work, but it's better than nothing and it might just save you some headaches!

 

Wasn't there a story about the USAF discovering a major vulnerability that had to do with flares? I can't recall, but it might have been the discovery that maybe the AA11 Archer could discriminate and reject USA made flares, but no one knew it during the 1980's because they only tested flares using Western made IR seeker heads, never got an Archer seeker to test, or at least not to test for flare effectiveness anyway. That must have been unnerving for many pilots.

 

 

[Apok]

Well  you have that F15 hit by R27T in Yemen video . It was droping flares and still got hit.  If it were DCS he would be safe. 

[Rover]

Probably already been linked but a interesting view nonetheless.

 

Just one of countless conflicts the 24/35 family has/is taking part of. 

[Stratos]

Thanks a bunch for the video!! Wish we can get a similar map one day.

[CrazyGman]

On 3/31/2021 at 10:54 AM, Rick50 said:

a security blanket when over hostile areas... no guarantee to work, but it's better than nothing and it might just save you some headaches!

 

Wasn't there a story about the USAF discovering a major vulnerability that had to do with flares? I can't recall, but it might have been the discovery that maybe the AA11 Archer could discriminate and reject USA made flares, but no one knew it during the 1980's because they only tested flares using Western made IR seeker heads, never got an Archer seeker to test, or at least not to test for flare effectiveness anyway. That must have been unnerving for many pilots.

 

 

Well i've heard 1 German pilot who flew the MiG 29 say that it seems US and Russian flares work well when used against missles from the same country. However that is just one pilots opinion, and using missiles for testing is expensive. So i'm guessing there aren't actually a whole lot of data points.

Edited April 8, 2021 by CrazyGman

[Rick50]

Yea, I'd heard that tests were done with own missiles, but after the Cold War ended, that's when it was discovered to be... less than optimal. BUT... and this is a big BUTT, that was a long time ago and details are fuzzy to me

[Lucas_From_Hell]

Most of these tests are done with captive missiles (i.e. fully functional systems bar for the engine and warhead) or on static set-ups on the ground, so you can monitor the seeker's response to a target without having to waste a live missile and risk damaging or losing a drone.

[Rick50]

oh no doubt!  Also helps with repeatability for scientific process, and also very likely enables the evaluation process to go ahead much faster pace, could do the equivalent of 20 missile shots in two flights per day. Then there is the severely restricting issues of needing a very large air weapons range, where time slot booking, and all the range safety rules would be... not especially quick or painfree to deal with. Don't get me wrong, at some point you'll have to prove this part or that feature on actual missiles, but yea, the majority of development would be captive. 

 

What bothers me about the flares situation is that they weren't of the mind to try getting an Archer seekerhead to captive mount and test using western flares. That, I feel, should have been doable. And despite so much of US strategy being dependent on air supremacy/dominance, I could imagine that maybe getting an Archer seeker head did not take as  high a priority as it should have. It should not have been impossible to get ahold of a few of these, or even just one for seeker captive mount testing... but it may have been still somewhat difficult, as it probably was only available at high disciplined frontline Russian squadrons that ran a "tight ship" on everything including inventory security. Even getting a single such unit might have proved near impossible.

 

Then, say a 6 months after being stolen, it's being used in real world tests... our flares fail to distract it... by now it's maybe 1987 or later. So maybe they start to try and develop a new flare to work properly. And maybe 3 years isn't enough to design, test evaluate, manufacture and then field such flares in enough quantities to matter on the battlefield... and suddenly the Berlin Wall is torn down by civilians happy that the Cold War is over!  

 

See, once I game it out, with the timelines from R-73 Archer being introduced to service in 1984, suddenly it's more difficult and unlikely to have been corrected in time, even if this had indeed been a priority. 

 

I imagine that for Soviet Hind pilots, they may have been really stunned when the first shootdowns with Stingers occured in the 1980's Afghanistan. I'll bet it was a very fast priority to put huge flare dispensers on the helis, and to drop them like confetti at a wedding! Being in a heli that's been hit with a MANPADs like the Stinger must be absolutely terrifying. And if you survive... well, let's just say I'd be thinking of an old poem by Rudyard Kipling and his thoughts of being alone in Afghanistan:

Quote

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, and the women come out to cut up what remains, jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains and go to your gawd like a soldier.

 

[Apok]

Well first we must know losses attributed to just MANPADs. If we look at US helicopter losses in Afganistan they are around 1/3 of Soviet ones and no major MANPAD threat is present.

[Rick50]

 

Well consider that in the last 20 years helo defenses are significantly better than the Soviets suffered through in the 1980's. Also consider that supplies of MANPADS were likely significantly more in the mid-late '80's than in the last 20 years, as in the 80's saw really significant funding and supplies from at least one superpower ('Murica), and an oil-power (Saudia Arabia), both being somewhat allied in wanting to stop the Soviets. 

 

I seem to recall the Soviet rotors very often came under fire from 12.7, 14.5 and 23mm ground fire too... and while thousands of rounds were fired, it really only took one nasty hit to make your day from "not bad" to "Oh NO..."