Proposed Upgrade

[The Integrator]

Hi all,

 

I have had enough of sub 30fps if I want decent graphics settings! It is time for a not unsubstantial upgrade. Currently I am running

 

i7-2600k @ 3.4GHz

8GB DDR3 RAM

GTX 970 (4GB)

MSI Z68A-G43 motherboard

2 250gb ssd (one of which is home to DCS :) )

500gb hdd

Displays are one 1920x1080 and one 1440x900

I have a 650W PSU

 

As you can see, the only half way worthwhile component is the graphics card, while the motherboard is truly ancient. I think the most urgent upgrade is the processor which, given the outdated chipset, will require a simultaneous motherboard upgrade.

 

For the processor I had a short list of i5-8400, i5-8600K, i7-8700, i7-8700K and I think that the i5-8600K is the best option, especially since it is overclockable. The 8700K just seems like a disproportionately large price increase for the performance increase as far as I can tell. That said, the 8600K is quite a price jump from the 8400, so is it really worth paying more for the 8600K? Since I intend to overclock it (assuming I get a -K) should I get water cooling? I currently have a pretty good CPU fan (Arctic Freezer 7 PRO Rev.2), but I can see that if I overclock watercooling might be necessary. If so what should I get?

 

As for the motherboard, due to the Coffee Lake processor, as far as I can tell my options are B350, H370, or Z370. If I require overclocking I am restricted to the Z370. I'm not sure what to spend here. Should I just get the cheapest Z370 I can find or is it worth spending a bit more to get something more substantial?

 

As for RAM, I fully intend to increase that to at least 16GB, probably 24 or even 32 since I am aware that DCS is fairly RAM intensive. This is also something to consider when selecting a motherboard. I have heard that RAM is quite expensive at the moment. Should I wait for it to come down, or is it not likely to come down for a while in which case I should just brace myself and do it now. Is it worth replacing the RAM I already have with DDR4? Could I even use some DDR3 RAM with some DDR4?

 

I don't think the graphics card is in need of an upgrade at the moment.

 

I should also mention that I intend to get a 1440p monitor as well (advice on this is appreciated as well :) ) at some point and will then probably use all 3 displays. At the moment I run DCS across both monitors but the smaller display just has the HawgTouch MFD displays or something similar. Similarly if I used three monitors I wouldn't split the main DCS display across all three screens. I would have one main image on the 1440p monitor, then use the others for instruments/MFDs/documents.

 

Please help me rid my life of stutter and low frame rates!

 

Thanks!

[Demon_]

Something like:

Gigabytes Z370 AORUS Gaming 5 or Ultra Gaming.

Asus Prime Z370-A, STRIX Z370-E Gaming or F Gaming.

 

No, DDR3 RAM and DDR4 are not compatible. Maybe buy 16Gb of DDR4 for your new pc, see how it run.

 

Arctic Freezer 7 PRO Rev.2: The TDP is 115w, the max cooling is 150w. On paper, that look ok. Try it.

 

8600K or drop your girl and get a 8700K.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Demon_

[BitMaster]

Basically what Demon wrote.

 

We regularly fight over the i5 vs. i7 thing....oh well..if you can afford it, the i7 has advantages, but the i5 6c/6t is ok too. Get a good cooler, they really like overclocking up to and beyond 5G.

 

DCS Heaven is reality, with the right gear.

 

* there currently is a RAM usage issue that has not been clearified what it is, a bug or normal new "high" RAM usage. Either way, prepare to buy more RAM in the future.

If money is not an obstacle, 24-32GB is no crime. It might be difficult to add more RAM later if you pick fancy modules and higher than JDEC Speeds. It may or may not work without

hair pulling. Again, the 2.5 beta has an issue, and it might also well be that 16GB will be enough for years to come, we just do not know yet.

Edited February 6, 2018 by BitMaster

[JIMJAM]

For what its worth..

On my last bday the big 50 I decided to treat myself and went to Falcon Northwest website. Be warned its computer porn so hide your CC. I then proceeded to click and built the fastest system and future proof I could. Yes you could build that same system for 1/2 but dammit you only live once I said.

Enough on my splurging and on to the ram. I have been crashing both DCS,Fallout 4 and multiple Oculus VR games. In DCS it was not during the flying but only when changing screens or exiting. I have 16 gigs DDR4 3000 and so does my 15 yr old nephew so he yanked his out and brought my i7 up to 32 gigs. No change and I still had a crash or 2 with that low on memory close some programs Windows warning box.

So I called Falcon and talked to one of their tech guys who is also a SIMMER. Picked his brain and he uses 16 gigs and most he deals with have 16. If buying a new system then yeah, get 32 but ram is high now and can easily be bought later and snapped in. However he suggest get it ALL at once and the exact kind. He has seen even the same name/specs etc act up.

He actually talked me out of getting 32 gigs. I figure he custom builds rigs to customers specs that have deep pockets all day and feels at this point 32 gigs is not needed.

[hansangb]

I think you posted your troubles in another thread. But that low memory just doesn't seem right. Yes, I splurged and have 32GB (do I? I don't even remember my own .sig LOL) But I would guess the vast majority are using 16GB for DCS. I wonder if a complete reinstall would help? And I'm sure you already changed the virtual memory to auto (or at least specified sufficiently large block if it's allocated manually?)

 

And there is time-value of money, so if you don't want to build it, NW Falcon is right up there!

[D.Va]

First of all, know that upgrading to an 8XXX CPU wouldn’t give you more than 20% better performance (10-30% depending on game) in gaming. Personally, if I was you, I would buy the i5-8400K or the 25% more expensive and 5-10% stronger i5-8600K and forget about overclocking (it’s never cost-efficient in my experience), go with stock! Water cooling is a cosmetic upgrade from air.

If you forget about overclocking, you can simply get any decent brand motherboard that’s about $120 instead of the $180 options and save money. Also, you don’t actually need ANY RAM upgrade. DCS 2.5 has a memory leak problem (some say, I haven’t experienced it), but when that’s fixed you won’t need any more than 8GB RAM to run DCS. My DCS uses 9GB. But the thing is this: if you only have 8GB RAM, your computer makes do with what it’s got, and I don’t believe there will be any actual performance degradation in practice.

The graphics card is indeed not upgradable without going up-stream against cost-efficiency; however, if you’re going to play with THREE MONITORS (I only use one!) then if you save your money on CPU ($75), motherboard ($60), water cooling ($100), and RAM ($250) as I’ve described above, you’ve already paid for two thirds of a 1080 upgrade. Have you considered going 4K or VR instead?

Edited February 7, 2018 by D.Va

[BitMaster]

D.Va,

 

how many PC's + Servers have you built in your life ?

 

how many PC's have you serviced in your life ?

 

how many have you fixed today ?

 

I only know it's been 3 today, the other numbers, I stopped counting 10y ago. That much to funded expertise.

 

I would honestly hold back with your advice cause they are sometimes more than wrong, they are bad.

 

 

BitMaster

[BitMaster]

---- and I don’t believe there will be any actual performance degradation in practice.

 

 

To believe is something, to know with hard facts is a totally different thing. :doh:

[The Integrator]

Well this has certainly given me a lot to think about, thanks for the great replies. I will probably get the Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Ultra Gaming for the motherboard since it is cheapest of those options and seems to be similar to the Gaming 7 just with slightly fewer bells and whistles (such as 1 ethernet port rather than 2 but...who needs 2 ethernet ports? :p ). I think I'll get the i5-8600K for the processor since it's a significant increase from the 8400 and I would like to keep the option to overclock open. That said I don't think I'll change the CPU cooler right away since after looking around a little it seems my current CPU fan should be OK, certainly if I limit the overclocking.

 

First of all, know that upgrading to an 8XXX CPU wouldn’t give you more than 20% better performance (10-30% depending on game) in gaming. Personally, if I was you, I would buy the i5-8400K or the 25% more expensive and 5-10% stronger i5-8600K and forget about overclocking (it’s never cost-efficient in my experience), go with stock!

You mean you don't think the extra performance is enough to justify the cost of the hardware (-K CPU and a Z370 motherboard)? I would be tempted to get the 8600K anyway even if I weren't going to overclock it (admittedly it would make the choice between that and the 8400 a lot harder) and the Ultra Gaming motherboard seems among the cheapest 370 motherboards (after looking briefly it turns out there aren't any B or H motherboards for Coffee Lake, only Z for the foreseeable future. I'm sure the B and H were supposed to be released around now :p ). Do you think the 8600K is not worth the extra cost over the 8400, or do you have any motherboard choice you think is a more cost-efficient option?

 

The graphics card is indeed not upgradable without going up-stream against cost-efficiency; however, if you’re going to play with THREE MONITORS (I only use one!) then if you save your money on CPU ($75), motherboard ($60), water cooling ($100), and RAM ($250) as I’ve described above, you’ve already paid for two thirds of a 1080 upgrade. Have you considered going 4K or VR instead?

VR is an idea I hadn't given any serious consideration to before. How would this system handle it? Getting an Oculus (I assume Oculus is the way to go, rather than Vive?) instead of a new monitor is certainly a possibility. As for the GPU I will just see what the situation is once the smoke clears from upgrading everything else :p Certainly after this the GPU is next on the chopping block. Do you think VR will be handled Ok with the GTX970?

 

 

 

 

As for RAM, it looks like the jury is still out on that... :p I am aware that 16GB seems to be generally considered the standard for DCS. I am tempted to leave it for now and see how things go after changing the CPU, especially with 16GB of RAM currently sitting in the region of £120. I'm prepared for things to end horribly and I end up having to get more RAM, especially if I go to VR as I am becoming more and more tempted to :p

 

I'm sure you already changed the virtual memory to auto (or at least specified sufficiently large block if it's allocated manually?)

I think so...is that the "automatically manage paging file size for all drives" option?

[BitMaster]

"Do you think VR will be handled Ok with the GTX970? "

 

No !

 

The "K" CPU has no cooler in the box "WOF" = without fan

 

Take care

 

Bit

[The Integrator]

"Do you think VR will be handled Ok with the GTX970? "

 

No !

 

I suspected as much. Forget about VR then!

Would a 1060 cut it or do I really need a 1080 or even a 1080ti (they are soooo expensive)?

 

The "K" CPU has no cooler in the box "WOF" = without fan

Bit

 

My current fan (Arctic Freezer 7 PRO Rev.2) should be OK for moderate overclocking. I will stick with that at least until I've tried it. What do you think about the Aorus Ultra Gaming motherboard? You also think I will need more RAM?

Edited February 7, 2018 by The Integrator

[D.Va]

D.Va,

 

how many PC's + Servers have you built in your life ?

 

how many PC's have you serviced in your life ?

 

how many have you fixed today ?

 

I only know it's been 3 today, the other numbers, I stopped counting 10y ago. That much to funded expertise.

 

I would honestly hold back with your advice cause they are sometimes more than wrong, they are bad.

 

BitMaster

I challenge you to prove any of my statements wrong - I stand by them.

 

I suspected as much. Forget about VR then!

Would a 1060 cut it or do I really need a 1080 or even a 1080ti (they are soooo expensive)?

 

 

 

My current fan (Arctic Freezer 7 PRO Rev.2) should be OK for moderate overclocking. I will stick with that at least until I've tried it. What do you think about the Aorus Ultra Gaming motherboard? You also think I will need more RAM?

I don't know if I asked, but what resolution do you intend to play at? You wrote something about a 1080p monitor, a 1440p monitor, and another 1440p monitor you're going to get? I play DCS with a 1060 and I can play with almost all options completely maxed out and get 30-60 FPS (average 45) in 1200p with only one monitor... I've never played with multiple monitors, but I can't imagine it would run great without a 1070 minimum.

 

Well this has certainly given me a lot to think about, thanks for the great replies. I will probably get the Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Ultra Gaming for the motherboard since it is cheapest of those options and seems to be similar to the Gaming 7 just with slightly fewer bells and whistles (such as 1 ethernet port rather than 2 but...who needs 2 ethernet ports? :p ). I think I'll get the i5-8600K for the processor since it's a significant increase from the 8400 and I would like to keep the option to overclock open. That said I don't think I'll change the CPU cooler right away since after looking around a little it seems my current CPU fan should be OK, certainly if I limit the overclocking.

 

 

You mean you don't think the extra performance is enough to justify the cost of the hardware (-K CPU and a Z370 motherboard)? I would be tempted to get the 8600K anyway even if I weren't going to overclock it (admittedly it would make the choice between that and the 8400 a lot harder) and the Ultra Gaming motherboard seems among the cheapest 370 motherboards (after looking briefly it turns out there aren't any B or H motherboards for Coffee Lake, only Z for the foreseeable future. I'm sure the B and H were supposed to be released around now :p ). Do you think the 8600K is not worth the extra cost over the 8400, or do you have any motherboard choice you think is a more cost-efficient option?

 

 

VR is an idea I hadn't given any serious consideration to before. How would this system handle it? Getting an Oculus (I assume Oculus is the way to go, rather than Vive?) instead of a new monitor is certainly a possibility. As for the GPU I will just see what the situation is once the smoke clears from upgrading everything else :p Certainly after this the GPU is next on the chopping block. Do you think VR will be handled Ok with the GTX970?

 

 

 

 

As for RAM, it looks like the jury is still out on that... :p I am aware that 16GB seems to be generally considered the standard for DCS. I am tempted to leave it for now and see how things go after changing the CPU, especially with 16GB of RAM currently sitting in the region of £120. I'm prepared for things to end horribly and I end up having to get more RAM, especially if I go to VR as I am becoming more and more tempted to :p

 

 

I think so...is that the "automatically manage paging file size for all drives" option?

I don't know where you live or what your stock situation is (American stocks are destroyed by the Bitcoin miners), but I'd be surprised if there wasn't anything like a "MSI Z270-A Pro" motherboard, or "Asus Prime Z370-P", or any other basic motherboard in the $120 low-range instead of the $210 high-range (which is what the Aorus Ultra Gaming costs to me) available anywhere.

 

Regarding 8400 or 8600K, it's up to you. I'd go for the 8600K, because the upgrade is reasonably cost-efficient anyway.

 

I would avoid VR currently. The current generation $600 VR headsets came out in 2016 and it appears the second generation is going to start releasing already in 2018, which will may bring greatly increased quality, increased performance, or increased cost-efficiency. We don't know which of the three, but we expect to experience it in 2018-2020. You also need AT LEAST the 1070 really.

 

Regarding RAM, some people have advised me that DCS uses a ton of RAM in multiplayer. I don't know, because I don't play multiplayer, but based on that 16GB is certainly advisable.

Edited February 8, 2018 by D.Va

[The Integrator]

I don't know if I asked, but what resolution do you intend to play at? You wrote something about a 1080p monitor, a 1440p monitor, and another 1440p monitor you're going to get? I play DCS with a 1060 and I can play with almost all options completely maxed out and get 30-60 FPS (average 45) in 1200p with only one monitor... I've never played with multiple monitors, but I can't imagine it would run great without a 1070 minimum.

I would avoid VR currently. The current generation $600 VR headsets came out in 2016 and it appears the second generation is going to start releasing already in 2018, which will may bring greatly increased quality, increased performance, or increased cost-efficiency. We don't know which of the three, but we expect to experience it in 2018-2020. You also need AT LEAST the 1070 really.

Right, I currently have one 1080p monitor and one 1440x900 monitor. I only put the main DCS window on the 1080p monitor, and use the second for cockpit instruments (for example flying the A-10 I have the MFDs displayed on the second monitor). If I got a new monitor, perhaps 4K, it would be the same setup with the main DCS screen only on the main monitor which I assume means that having the second monitor is not a big performance hit, since it's only displaying instruments.

 

It's either a new monitor or VR, and since from what you say VR is to be avoided for now I am looking at a new monitor. If I need a new GPU it won't be bad since, as you pointed out originally, I can save on the CPU, motherboard, cooling etc. I can hold off on a new monitor for a time and just get a new GPU for now.

 

I don't know where you live or what your stock situation is (American stocks are destroyed by the Bitcoin miners), but I'd be surprised if there wasn't anything like a "MSI Z270-A Pro" motherboard, or "Asus Prime Z370-P", or any other basic motherboard in the $120 low-range instead of the $210 high-range (which is what the Aorus Ultra Gaming costs to me) available anywhere.

 

Here in the U.K. the Ultra Gaming is £140 ($194) (although that's on Amazon on sale from £150 I don't know how long for), and looking around you are right, there are various Z370s for around £100-£110 ($139-$153), so I think I will look into those and get one of them instead.

 

Regarding RAM, some people have advised me that DCS uses a ton of RAM in multiplayer. I don't know, because I don't play multiplayer, but based on that 16GB is certainly advisable.

 

At least 16GB RAM does seem like the way to go.

Edited February 8, 2018 by The Integrator

[Demon_]

Personally, if I was you, I would buy the i5-8400K or the 25% more expensive and 5-10% stronger i5-8600K and forget about overclocking (it’s never cost-efficient in my experience)

 

Suggest a "K" CPU to not overclock him. :surprise: Thank you for the joke.

 

But the thing is this: if you only have 8GB RAM, your computer makes do with what it’s got, and I don’t believe there will be any actual performance degradation in practice.

 

Your computer makes do with what? Please, explain what we don't know for many years. :worthy:

[D.Va]

Here in the U.K. the Ultra Gaming is £140 ($194) (although that's on Amazon on sale from £150 I don't know how long for), and looking around you are right, there are various Z370s for around £100-£110 ($139-$153), so I think I will look into those and get one of them instead.

The most important thing on a motherboard is how many USB connections it supports, since that sticks with you for many years to come. You can expect a computer to last 10 years, but the graphics card will need upgrading every 3-5 years if you want to stay on top. That's why I advocate only buying the low and mid-range graphics cards. It's better to get a weaker one and upgrade more frequently. I bought my PC in 2013 and upgraded the graphics card in 2018 (which I could have done as early as 2016, but I wasn't playing PC a lot at the time) and expect to upgrade the graphics card again in another 2-5 years. Graphics card get old a lot faster than processors. Even the i7-2600K from 2011 still performs 80% as good as the newest processors.

Suggest a "K" CPU to not overclock him. :surprise: Thank you for the joke.

 

 

 

Your computer makes do with what? Please, explain what we don't know for many years. :worthy:

In my day, K's came with stock coolers and spending additional money on 3rd party coolers was always cost inefficient. Apparently, K's don't come with stocks anymore, which may or may not change the cost-efficiency situation.

Computers make do with memory. I can run one game and use 9GB, but someone who only has 8GB runs it and only uses 8GB without adverse side-effects.

Edited February 9, 2018 by D.Va