MiG-29 high AoA performance

[504Goon]

After some discussion about Mig29 FM in the thread about 3d model (http://forum.lockon.ru/showthread.php?t=21858) , i thought to start up a thread about it, and especially the high Angle of attack performance of the jet.

I did some tests in lomac with the F-15 and Mig-29, checking their sustained and instantaneous turn rates. The numbers that i found, were pretty similiar to each other, and also what the real things are supposed to be doing. However, what was really noticeable, was what happened when the AoA started to increase. Whenever the 29 went beyond about 20AoA, it just started shaking, loosing airspeed, and getting very sluggish to control. For the record, the 29 has a maximum AoA of 28 (9.13S) and 26 for the baseline 9.12. I've understood the Fulcrum to be a very good aircraft at higher AoA, except for a reversed rudder rolling tendency. Should it be as shaky and sluggish, as it is in lomac right now?

[Pilotasso]

The problem is not just the Migs, its all aircraft. We need AFM for those envelope extremes, theres no other way arround it.

[504Goon]

I did quite a lot testing F15 vs Mig29, and the F15 certainly did not get the shakes&sluggish behaviour during high G at corner speed. The Mig however did, and a lot. So the mig might get to critical AoA sooner than the F15, and so the "bad alpha" script kicks in easier..

[Pilotasso]

It does, not so much as the mig but it does, you cant do much BFM above 15000 feet, and all other planes are eclipsed before the migs shear accleration and climb rate. All planes engines are severly underpowered in some situations as high altitude (except the mig wich can supercruise)and low speed handling. As I said IMHO we need AFM to correct this, there are no SIM's out there that claculates divergent boundary layer induced drag (wich by itself bleeds more speed than going straight up just to give you an idea), just as much as dinamic regime engine thrust claculation.

[EscCtrl]

I'm sure its not as easy to add these things to the game as just typing 'improve all planes FM' into the LUA script. ED said that all flyables will have AFM in future products did they not?

[Pilotasso]

I want this corrected as anyone else I have been killed because of the less than ideal high AOA scripts too many times its not funny. Rudder raw autority is too high and too perfect, you can out turn people with it alone at low speeds. Corner spedd though present doesnt benifit BFM as much as it should, etc etc...

[504Goon]

My point is, since the russian aircraft have a reputation of good handling at low speed & high aoa, then why does especially the mig get the crappy aoa handling so easily compared to others? The 33 suffers from pretty much same disease. The Flanker doesn't get the shakes (as much) at corner, and neither does the eagle (as much). I am not asking full AFM for my favourite aircraft, but more of a tweak to the FM. Flanker FM was changed somewhere between 1.0x-1.1 to get rid of the stall behaviour it used to have back then.

 

Oh, and corner speed -does- matter..;)

[Raptor22]

I think that this is something that also needs to be fixed in BS... F-15s aren't good at low altitude low speed turns, while on the contrary the Mig, Su33, and Flankers are extremely good at handling this situation. The Mig will eventually almost "stop" turning when forced into high AoA sometimes... causing any other plane to catch up to it from behind. A Russian made game depicting its own aircrafts like that?? Kind of awkward... I must say :noexpression:

[RvETito]

I've understood the Fulcrum to be a very good aircraft at higher AoA, except for a reversed rudder rolling tendency.

 

The high AoA causes reversed ailerons tendency, not rudder. In fact the rudders are very effective in roll at high AoA because of the interference with the two powerful vortexes generated by the LERXs. During mid '80s there have been tests with new flight control system of the 9-12 which above certain AoA deflects the rudders instead ailerons when moving the stick left-right. This is implemented in most of the serial aircrafts. Another result of these tests is that the MiG-29 got rid of the underfuselage fins, which could be seen in some of the first serial produced Fulcrums.

 

Of course we need AFM for all fighters and AFAIK the only reason we still don't have them is that ED simply doesn't have the necessary data base. Yo-Yo said there wouldn't be a problem for them to design AFM for fighters but their info supply is not enough.