Autopilot HDG/ALT HOLD

[Hueyman]

Hello guys,

 

 

First, I stop people running at me yelling real Hueys don't have autopilots, I know how they works. ( most of em don't even have a TRIM REL system btw, only transparent hydraulics controls )

 

 

 

But in sim, the cheat autopilot function " level flight " should AT LEAST do it jobs properly. It holds altitude but it constantly turns to one side, slowly but surely, making long navigations a pain.

 

 

Doing a lot of IFR NDB let downs lately, and it would be really handy to have that LEVEL FLIGHT option holding current ALT and HDG rock solid !

 

 

Please add this in next update.

 

 

Thanks

[Holton181]

Doing a lot of IFR NDB let downs lately, and it would be really handy to have that LEVEL FLIGHT option holding current ALT and HDG rock solid !

I pretty sure it never was ment to be used that way. It's intended use is, for what I know, only to allow the player to temporarily jump into other seats to have some fun with the side guns or flexible sight, like handing the controls to the co-pilot (you can in your imagination consider him to not be proficient enough to hold a steady course for any length of time). The AP implementation is for that matter pretty simplified and not a precision tool. For long flights, or play with IFR stuff, you are simply intendent to fly it yourself. So in that respect it's no bug really.

[tintifaxl]

I can live with it not being able to fly within EGT limits, but holding barometric alt and heading would be very welcome.

[Chic]

Hello guys,

 

 

First, I stop people running at me yelling real Hueys don't have autopilots, I know how they works. ( most of em don't even have a TRIM REL system btw, only transparent hydraulics controls )

 

 

 

But in sim, the cheat autopilot function " level flight " should AT LEAST do it jobs properly. It holds altitude but it constantly turns to one side, slowly but surely, making long navigations a pain.

 

 

Doing a lot of IFR NDB let downs lately, and it would be really handy to have that LEVEL FLIGHT option holding current ALT and HDG rock solid !

 

 

Please add this in next update.

 

 

Thanks

 

 

Are you sure you are not activating the ORBIT Mode of the Autopilot?

[Sharkku]

Yeah, I'm sure he's not activating the orbit mode. I know what he's talking about, I have this issue as well. It's only really apparent when using high levels of time compression, since it's a very very slow tendency to turn. But I agree with him, it's rather annoying, since the only time I really ever use the "co-pilot" is when I want to fly a long boring straight leg and speed up the time. And then it's veering off course.

[Chic]

Take some deviation/time measurements and look for consistency.

You may be experiencing the inherent drift that helos are subject to.

In the DCS Mi8, for example, you'll find a 8 degree left drift at low speeds and 3 degrees above 200 KPH. If modelled correctly in the Huey, the drift would be to the right. Not sure to what degree though. Once known, you can factor the drift angle into your Autopilot heading.

[Hueyman]

We could debate forever of course ( as we usually love to ahah ;) )

 

 

It's not about saying it's realistic or not. Of course it's not. But it's there so why not letting it be working as it should ( i.e LEVEL FLIGHT = constant altitude and heading ).

 

 

Veering to left or right is just nonsense. For AP equipped Hueys such as the Bell 212, when you press the HDG button on the AP CMD panel, it will engage and turn toward the selected HDG on the HSI, and do whatever it needs to keep that heading. No drift, nada.

 

 

Now, on this '80s basic 205/UH-1, I'm not even sure we have Force Trim IRL, as those are generally coupled with integrated APs and SAS systems. 90% of the series Helicopters just have hydraulically actuated controls to reduce stick force to zero, but no Force Trim alone, for the 205 it was an option.

 

 

So having that mix here, and adding that AP cheat, it should be very useful to have it follow the current heading at time of activation, as Sharkku said, useful for long legs.

 

 

Of course it would be our task to reckon wind drift, but not our task to regularly deactivate AP, take a counter correction of X degrees, re-activating AP, re-accelerate time and wait until it veers of course too much again .. very pesky

 

 

Not everyone loves to spend 3 hours on the controls fighting to keep precise flight parameters. It's one of the boring thing IRL and the kind of stuff that doesn't make you any better or more profescioent in the long run... intense tasks such take off, landings, hovers, combat, let downs or such are demanding tasks.

 

 

So, IMHO, correcting that current inaccurate AP wouldn't lower realism. Those who wants to wank their stick all day long to fly straight still will be able to ignore this and never hit the AP cheat button !

[Holton181]

But it's there so why not letting it be working as it should

It does already, as I mentioned, it's intended to be used for briefly taking on other tasks than flying. It's not an AP per se, this

( i.e LEVEL FLIGHT = constant altitude and heading ).

for long, boring flights, wasn't the intention when developed so I guess they used some simplified, not 100% accurate implementation of AP-like functionality.

I'm not arguing about realism, nor about the usefulness of proper AP, but I think from the developers point of view it works perfectly well for what it is supposed to do. Therefore I doubt they will put any resources on implement this feature request (since it's not a bug, you effectively asking for a new feature).

[tintifaxl]

It does already, as I mentioned, it's intended to be used for briefly taking on other tasks than flying.

 

How do you know that?

[Chic]

It appears that DCS's Huey Autopilot most likely "simulates" the role of your copilot, NOT a true Autopilot system. (DCS misnamed this function).

That's why it becomes disabled when the copilot dies, NOT when systems get shot out.

 

 

When I engage the AP, I feel that I am just handing the controls to my Copilot, thus NOT cheating.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Chic

[Holton181]

How do you know that?

See Chic's post above. And remember the Huey doesn't have an AP IRL, and modules in DCS is ment to be as close to reality as possible, so no (real) AP in the Huey.

[Sharkku]

@Holton181 Why are you arguing in defense of this behaviour? It's a completely retarded behaviour, and I'm sure not intended when developed. Asking for the autopilot to work correctly is not a "feature request". That's just silly.

 

@Chic No, it's not due to modeled drift. That would only cause the longitudinal axis of the aircraft to not coincide with the heading. What we are talking about is a slow turn, the nose turning to point another way.

[Hueyman]

Yeah dudes, there will always be smart heads making great efforts to not understand what is howether clearly explained..

 

How to submit that bug to the devs ?

 

Thanks

Hueyman

[Holton181]

@Holton181 Why are you arguing in defense of this behaviour? It's a completely retarded behaviour, and I'm sure not intended when developed. Asking for the autopilot to work correctly is not a "feature request". That's just silly.

I'm not defending the behavior, if they ever implement a real AP behavior I will feel totally indifferent about it, I don't use it this way but if anyone wants to I'm perfectly fine with it.

What I'm saying is that:

1) it's most likely a very simplified implementation of it, with a not so perfect behaviour, actively chosen by the devs because INTENDED use (briefly jump to another seat like the back seat gunners, concentrate on the flexible sight or fiddle with the radio, then go back to flying her) didn't require more, and they probably didn't want to spend more resources on it than necessary. Implementing a REAL AP might not be that simple due to the complexity of the model. Perfectly doable (other has it) but I guess not motivated by the devs at the time of implementation.

2) since it works perfectly fine as it was INTENDED to work, this bug report is more to be considered as a request, because you ask for more than was intended. Nothing wrong about the request, if ED find it motivated enough to put resources on it then fine. But I highly doubt they will.

[Holton181]

Yeah dudes, there will always be smart heads making great efforts to not understand what is howether clearly explained..

I perfectly understand what you have clearly explained, but...see my post above.

[tintifaxl]

@Holton181: Again. Please tell us how you know the devs intentions for the autopilot?

 

Until then I find it more appropriate to not capitalize "intended" but better "most likely", "probably", "might" etc. so it's clearer you're only second guessing the devs intentions.

[Holton181]

@Holton181: Again. Please tell us how you know the devs intentions for the autopilot?

 

Until then I find it more appropriate to not capitalize "intended" but better "most likely", "probably", "might" etc. so it's clearer you're only second guessing the devs intentions.

 

 

From the manual, section 6.5, page 79, first paragraph:

Note. To simplify the use of helicopter-carried weapons when occupying other crew members' positions (copilot, door gunners), helicopter is under control of a virtual pilot. This mode is implemented as an autopilot. The game autopilot has three operation modes: ATTITUDE HOLD, LEVEL FLIGHT, ORBIT.

[tintifaxl]

Where does it state „briefly“?

[Holton181]

Where does it state „briefly“?

Oh, come on! You got the official statement regarding its intended use and now this?

 

Oh well...

1) sitting in the co-pilot seat, operating the flexible sight, you can still fly her simultaneously, but it will be hard. Then you have this "fellow pilot" to help you out.

Do you plan to constantly operate the flexible sight for 2-3h straight, while he is flying in a perfect straight line at absolutely constant heading and altitude the entire time? On what are you aiming at all that time? If you don't use the flexible sight, then you can fly her...

2) sitting in one of the side gunners seats, you can't fly her simultaneously, so your "fellow pilot" has to do it for you. Are you going to sit there for 2-3h straight? If FLYING her for 2-3h yourself is boring, what is this then? But we all have different opinions about entertainment. And I assume (yes, I'm officially guessing here) you are one of very few wanting to do that, most likely not enough for ED to put resources on it.

3) the majority of situations where enemies are engaged with the "fellow pilot" flying straight and level can be considered brief. Letting him go on will make you fly away from the battle.

4) if you are NOT going to operate any guns or radios or navigate, but still want her to follow that perfectly straight line while you sit there without doing anything (or have dinner, picking up groceries, have a nap...), you are using it in a way not intended. OBSERVE! I DID NOT say it's wrong or cheating! do as you like, but your "fellow pilot" wasn't trained good enough by the devs and they (most likely) won't send him back to the academy.

5) IFR NDB let downs are indeed out of scope for him, he is not IFR rated. But nothing wrong in letting him try some IFR routines from time to time, but you have already observed some of his shortcomings.

6) I most likely miss out on other arguments why "briefly" is a word suitable with respect to the intended use, but I'm perfectly confident you are intelligent enough to see my point.

 

And to the end I want to again make clear it's nothing wrong with the request, and if they (ED) do fulfill your request, then congratulations!

[Sharkku]

Well, I have a hard time believing that this behaviour was chosen as a shortcut to save developing time. What parameter is the "autopilot" using for keeping the heading? And why is it slowly turning? Is it using the course gyro, and following the gyro drift? Understandable then, but then it's working as a real autopilot would, and not a simplified aid when doing other tasks, and your argument falls. Why not take the helicopters absolute heading in the game world as reference then? I'm sure that number would be extractable from the inner workings of the sim, and would result in a virtual co-pilot that can actually fly, keeping the nose pointed in one direction. And it would actually be more realistic.

[Hueyman]

Any dev thoughts on this ? Evil Bivol, PilotMi8 ?