Base / final carrier turn at 30deg too wide.

[coolts]

I've been having a really hard time getting this bit of the approach right. From Wags/Jabbers/Citizen Gamers, etc., videos I see the numbers and I can control my AOA now, but I seem to be coming off the 180 onto finals a good 1/4 mile to the boats starboard side.

 

At first I thought I was misinterpreting the HUD bank angle guides but having re-watched the videos, I'm not. Then I tried doing tighter turns and sometimes that works but its not exactly correct procedure.

 

I'm pretty sure its my speed. Due to the sluggish throttle, (and my inexperience), I tend to wallow when slowing to on speed AOA on the downwind, so have to add power to climb in the final turn rather than being at 600-ft and descending as I should. Thus I'm on speed BUT climbing when I turn to final.....

 

tl:dr

 

I'm going too fast and my turning circle's too big so I miss the boat. :joystick:

 

 

Am I the only dipstick having bother with this? Loving the module though. Carrier ops rock.

Edited June 25, 2018 by coolts

[danny875]

From my basic understanding having also watched the same videos after the break you should be 1.2-1.3Nm abeam the ship prior to the 180.

The 180 is initiates when level with the hanger doors (so not past the end of the ship).

27-30 degrees angle of bank at the 180 whilst descending to roughly 450 at the 90, this works out pretty good for me so perhaps you are too close on the downwind?

Edit: maybe your wind speed is messed up? You’ll need a headwind on approach, a tail wind would screw up the numbers by pushing you on close after/during the 180?

Edited June 25, 2018 by danny875
Edit

[Bonz]

Keep in mind a target airspeed for 8.1 AOA (Optimum) with gear down and full flaps... This target airspeed is based on Gross Weight (Your current Gross Weight is listed on the Checklist page of your DDI). There is also a Max trap Gross Weight... 33,000 pounds unrestricted... which equates to approximately 6,700 pounds of fuel with wingtip missiles and pylons. At Max Trap Gross weight your optimum (8.1 AOA) airspeed is about 137 knots... As you burn gas your airspeed is reduced at about 2-3 knots per 1000 pounds of fuel burned. You will find that it's necessary to carry a few extra knots in the turn to final to maintain optimum AOA... so as you roll out on final (All else being equal) you should expect a slight power reduction to maintain Optimum... then on final maintain attitude and use power to control glideslope (the Ball centered)... One last note... the first 90 of turn on final should be on instruments. Make sure you start your turn just as you pass the abeam position. Good luck and have fun.

Edited June 25, 2018 by Bonz

[erautour]

The last 90 degrees of the turn you should be stealing looks at the boat and adjusting your turn so you roll out properly lined up. That's all there is to it. Look at boat, back to instruments, rinse and repeat.

[serpent64]

....... but I seem to be coming off the 180 onto finals a good 1/4 mile to the boats starboard side.

 

 

That's your problem, you're too close abeam of the ship. Need to be 1.0 to 1.1 nm abeam at the 180. At that distance and 30 degrees AOB, will place you at the start of the "groove."

[Doum76]

I've been having a really hard time getting this bit of the approach right. From Wags/Jabbers/Citizen Gamers, etc., videos I see the numbers and I can control my AOA now, but I seem to be coming off the 180 onto finals a good 1/4 mile to the boats starboard side.

 

At first I thought I was misinterpreting the HUD bank angle guides but having re-watched the videos, I'm not. Then I tried doing tighter turns and sometimes that works but its not exactly correct procedure.

 

I'm pretty sure its my speed. Due to the sluggish throttle, (and my inexperience), I tend to wallow when slowing to on speed AOA on the downwind, so have to add power to climb in the final turn rather than being at 600-ft and descending as I should. Thus I'm on speed BUT climbing when I turn to final.....

 

tl:dr

 

I'm going too fast and my turning circle's too big so I miss the boat. :joystick:

 

 

Am I the only dipstick having bother with this? Loving the module though. Carrier ops rock.

 

 

 

 

One small details as well but can always affect.... What speed is your carrier set to? Is there any Wind set moving over deck besides the Carrrier's speed? if you try on carrier moving 11-16 kts like on Aerobatics Online and some crosswinds over deck added to the equation, numbers will always be an issue when learning, once you'Re get used to it and learned the height you need to be and where, you can adjust with visual reference but for learning the proper pattern, this affect a bit, siince all the numbers being setup with an over deck wind of 25-30 kts....

[fmedges]

This helped me. With your HSI set at 10 miles start your turn when the ship is 5 degrees past 270 degrees (265). Jabbers mentions this in his video.

[Mad_Max2]

My guess is A. You have a wicked cross-wind, or B. your too close on downwind. 1.2nm when abeam has worked good for me. Anything between 1 and 1.5 is rule of thumb, but you'll find there is a "sweet-spot".

 

 

Regardless of your climbing or descending in the final 180 you should not be a 1/4 mile starboard on roll-out. Something is hosing you, you'll find it.

[Doum76]

I've been having a really hard time getting this bit of the approach right. From Wags/Jabbers/Citizen Gamers, etc., videos I see the numbers and I can control my AOA now, but I seem to be coming off the 180 onto finals a good 1/4 mile to the boats starboard side.

 

At first I thought I was misinterpreting the HUD bank angle guides but having re-watched the videos, I'm not. Then I tried doing tighter turns and sometimes that works but its not exactly correct procedure.

 

I'm pretty sure its my speed. Due to the sluggish throttle, (and my inexperience), I tend to wallow when slowing to on speed AOA on the downwind, so have to add power to climb in the final turn rather than being at 600-ft and descending as I should. Thus I'm on speed BUT climbing when I turn to final.....

 

tl:dr

 

I'm going too fast and my turning circle's too big so I miss the boat. :joystick:

 

 

Am I the only dipstick having bother with this? Loving the module though. Carrier ops rock.

 

 

You know what, just do a pattern, once you get Abeam to the Ship, pause the game, take a screenshot angled looking at the ship and partly your HUD so we see things, or jsut as you'Re about to roll in for you 180, then do anotehr screenshot as you turn so we see your HUD and angle as you turn, with image it'll be easier to help, and no tracks, since tracks are pretty much broken for now when using a Carrier. This wil help more, cuz for now you get so many replies and will end up getting more confused as to do or not, but persoanly as i turn, i am most likely 1.1 nm from the ship when i get downwind, which gives me a 180 turn 27-30 AoB until i roll out on the groove, if i pass the 1.2 nm i then need to turn with a less steep AoB if not i'll come out in the groove too short and over 1.1 nm i need to adjsut my turn, while at 1.1 nm i can keep a steady 27ish AoB. and 1.1 nm when i cross the ilsland/tower. But remember, ocne you get in the 90, you should start looking more often at the ship with your other primary eye checks and adjsut your turn, if you see you're about to overshoot 1/4 nm, then just bank more and compensate with throttle to avoid the sink.

Edited June 25, 2018 by Doum76

[boscoh]

I find 27 degrees is working better for me, it's rarely going to be a constant 30 degree turn as speed/weight/wind will always play a factor in it. Practice, practice, practice. I suck at landing (just watch the Stinger's vid on YouTube) but am slowly getting better. When you're about halfway through your base turn onto final, you should be eyeballing your position, and make any corrections to bank angle needed. You should do this again right before you cross the ship wake and roll out. The only way you can eyeball it is to practice and get better at it. Eventually you'll make a couple good passes and it'll start to stick.

 

Record your landings (or I guess save the track files) so when you do have a good one, you can replay it and see what you did right. Your better landings will have you on speed and trimmed out on downwind before your turn to final.

[Nealius]

From my basic understanding having also watched the same videos after the break you should be 1.2-1.3Nm abeam the ship prior to the 180.

 

This is the trickiest part, because following the prescribed maneuver of:

 

-350kts

-throttles idle

-speedbrake out

-break with G that's 1% of your airspeed

-gear down/flaps down under 250kts

 

Will put you at 0.8-0.9nm abeam the ship instead of the 1.2-1.3nm that you need. To get 1.2-1.3nm I have to use G that's about 0.7-0.8% of my airspeed.

[Biga42]

I realized that some changed from the last update. The turns are must wider then.

[coolts]

This is the trickiest part, because following the prescribed maneuver of:

 

-350kts

-throttles idle

-speedbrake out

-break with G that's 1% of your airspeed

-gear down/flaps down under 250kts

 

Will put you at 0.8-0.9nm abeam the ship instead of the 1.2-1.3nm that you need. To get 1.2-1.3nm I have to use G that's about 0.7-0.8% of my airspeed.

 

I relax my turn a bit when approaching the downwind so as to hit 1.2 when abeam. That's not my problem. I did some analysis last night and my biggest issue is that by the time I've stabilised at 600ft, 140-ish kts and on speed AOA, I'm way past the boat, or i turn at the round-down, before i'm stable and end up in a climb going too fast and overshoot.

 

I'm going to give myself another 2 miles on the downwind to get prepped for the base turn. I need to find a good throttle/engine RPM ballpark for 130kts-140kts wheels&flaps down.

[Ski01]

In the ME you can set an FFG7 at 1.2nm spacing and that makes a good visual guide to test your lineup. Also - I find 15 clicks of trim on D/W as the speed comes back gets me to a speed stable trimmed condition with no stick force.

[coolts]

In the ME you can set an FFG7 at 1.2nm spacing and that makes a good visual guide to test your lineup. Also - I find 15 clicks of trim on D/W as the speed comes back gets me to a speed stable trimmed condition with no stick force.

 

I'll try both those tips! I find that as soon as i come off my crosswind turn at idle and drop gear & flaps, the nose shoots up, i start trimming to on-speed then the nose plummets and i have to add power and so on... classic PIO but its bloody hard to stop doing it.

[fmedges]

I'll try both those tips! I find that as soon as i come off my crosswind turn at idle and drop gear & flaps, the nose shoots up, i start trimming to on-speed then the nose plummets and i have to add power and so on... classic PIO but its bloody hard to stop doing it.

 

My gear, flaps, speed brake in and trimming all happen while still in my break turn once I hit 250. I usually still have another 20 or so degrees to go in my turn. Once I got used to this method everything fell into place as far as the downwind leg goes.

[coolts]

My gear, flaps, speed brake in and trimming all happen while still in my break turn once I hit 250. I usually still have another 20 or so degrees to go in my turn. Once I got used to this method everything fell into place as far as the downwind leg goes.

 

The trimming too? But your lift state is completely different than when you are wings level. Unless you are trimming nose down in anticipation of the nose shooting up.......cunning!

[Doum76]

This is the trickiest part, because following the prescribed maneuver of:

 

-350kts

-throttles idle

-speedbrake out

-break with G that's 1% of your airspeed

-gear down/flaps down under 250kts

 

Will put you at 0.8-0.9nm abeam the ship instead of the 1.2-1.3nm that you need. To get 1.2-1.3nm I have to use G that's about 0.7-0.8% of my airspeed.

 

 

To make it simple for the break, from what i read a while ago, can'T remember where unfortunately, maybe one of those documents i gathered for Carrrier ops, NATOPS or basics procedures or forums reading. Been a while. :), since it'S from the old days of FSX VRS SuperBug..

 

 

I do it simple, 1 G pull per 1 kts, so for my 350 break, i pull 3.5 G's.

 

By the time i hit the 90 of the crosswind leg i'm pretty much around 150-160 kts, gear and flaps coming down a few seconds after, i easy up the AoB to about +/- 27 deg (reducing AoB at that speed ease up giving in throttle to avoid nose sink) which leaves me to adjust trim, and stabilize RoD to stay level at 800 ft, or close to, by the time i get downwind, i'm pretty much on speed and slowly ease up on throttle to drop to 600 ft leaving me on a downwind about 1.1/1.2 nm of the ship , and pretty well all setup by the time i get Abeam and ready for the 180. This is with a 1 nm break passing the ship, if i'D break at 1.5 nm, i'll have even more time to settle up. But again, that's how i do it, but it works for me.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Doum76

[erautour]

I relax my turn a bit when approaching the downwind so as to hit 1.2 when abeam. That's not my problem. I did some analysis last night and my biggest issue is that by the time I've stabilised at 600ft, 140-ish kts and on speed AOA, I'm way past the boat, or i turn at the round-down, before i'm stable and end up in a climb going too fast and overshoot.

 

I'm going to give myself another 2 miles on the downwind to get prepped for the base turn. I need to find a good throttle/engine RPM ballpark for 130kts-140kts wheels&flaps down.

 

Going that far downind is going to screw you up on final especially if you descend through the turn. You’re going to be way low and have to fly straight and level until you intercept the glidseslope.

 

You can break later but I would extend an extra .5-.75 miles after you are abeam max. It gives you a little more time and doesn’t throw off the numbers too much. Aim for 400ft at 1 mile on final.

 

 

 

The breaks G's is pretty simple, i don't calculate the %, it's mostly 1 G per 1 KTS, so for my 350 kts break i pull 3.5 g.

 

1% of 350 is 3.5g... and 1 g per knot is 350g. That’s not the issue. The issue is you have to relax on the pull or you end up too close to the boat and the way it’s explained doesn’t make it readily apparent to some that it’s not a continuous 3.5g pull until downwind.

[fmedges]

The trimming too? But your lift state is completely different than when you are wings level. Unless you are trimming nose down in anticipation of the nose shooting up.......cunning!

 

Trimming nose up. I just get it close and then refine it when I roll out. I used to have a hard time keeping 600ft because I would sink so much, but now I level out and then descend to 600. It took me awhile to get a feel for how much to pull in the break as I found 1% of 350 too aggressive.

Edited June 26, 2018 by fmedges

[boscoh]

I need to find a good throttle/engine RPM ballpark for 130kts-140kts wheels&flaps down.

 

Generally between 88-93 RPM is what I've found, depending on weight.

 

Don't focus on a specific RPM, as it really only applies up until you turn out of the downwind to final. You'll need to add a little in your turn, and you'll need to bring it back a little when you roll out on final.Then you'll be working the throttle constantly to maintain glideslope.

[McG]

I relax my turn a bit when approaching the downwind so as to hit 1.2 when abeam. That's not my problem. I did some analysis last night and my biggest issue is that by the time I've stabilised at 600ft, 140-ish kts and on speed AOA, I'm way past the boat, or i turn at the round-down, before i'm stable and end up in a climb going too fast and overshoot.

 

I'm going to give myself another 2 miles on the downwind to get prepped for the base turn. I need to find a good throttle/engine RPM ballpark for 130kts-140kts wheels&flaps down.

 

Passing the boat on the upwind leg, when do you initiate your break?

 

If your breaking into the pattern as soon as you reach the bow, extend the upwind leg for between 1 and 1.5nm from the boat before executing your break. This will give you the extra couple of miles range you are talking about giving yourself, but still allow you to turn inbound towards the boat when abeam the hanger door / round down.

[danny875]

Passing the boat on the upwind leg, when do you initiate your break?

 

If your breaking into the pattern as soon as you reach the bow, extend the upwind leg for between 1 and 1.5nm from the boat before executing your break. This will give you the extra couple of miles range you are talking about giving yourself, but still allow you to turn inbound towards the boat when abeam the hanger door / round down.

 

This is a good point that hasn’t been mentioned as far as I remember in this post.

Watch this guy doing his carrier qualifications and on one pass he extends to over 4Nm and has plenty of time to get onspeed at 600 ft.

 

[coolts]

Passing the boat on the upwind leg, when do you initiate your break?

 

If your breaking into the pattern as soon as you reach the bow, extend the upwind leg for between 1 and 1.5nm from the boat before executing your break. This will give you the extra couple of miles range you are talking about giving yourself, but still allow you to turn inbound towards the boat when abeam the hanger door / round down.

 

To give my self more "flapping" room, i extend to 3mn before turning to downwind. Once i get the hang of things ill shorten that. I like the idea off adding a ship in the ME 1.2 nm to the port side of the boat to give me a spacing reference as that is a critical part i keep messing up.

[coolts]

This is a good point that hasn’t been mentioned as far as I remember in this post.

Watch this guy doing his carrier qualifications and on one pass he extends to over 4Nm and has plenty of time to get onspeed at 600 ft.

 

 

 

Love the video! Yeah, more distance helps a lot.