Case 1 Break Angle confusion

[Fakum]

I am a little confused regarding the results I am getting from my break turn. I have watched a lot of video, and primarily, I follow the procedures laid out by Lex. Long story short, I approach the right side of the carrier at 350 kts at 800’. I go into the break about 1 mile off the bow. At the point I make the brake, I roll left 30 degrees, throttle to idle, air brake full open, lower flaps to full, while maintain altitude. Once I hit 250 knots airspeed, I retract the air brake and lower gear. Keep in mind Im still in the cross wind at this point. Once AOA is up, I start trimming out to onspeed, by this time I am just about hitting the reciprocal course, once I do hit the reciprocal course, I level out immediately. But I find myself pretty far out, sometimes 2 miles or so? I don’t understand why Im not near my target of about 1.2 once abeam? I did read others use G force as an indicator for break turn instead, but I haven’t even tried that because as far as Im concerned, this technique should be working for me. And yes, I am using the 30 degree Tic Mark in the HUD, not the 20.Thanks for any tips.

[Tonkenna]

It's the 30 degree turn you're using, that only works when you're on speed turning from the abeam position. For a 350kt break you need a 3.5g turn, more like 70 degrees bank. As the speed bleeds off in the turn, reduce the g and therefore bank angle. The speed will bleed off much faster as well in the harder turn. You should end up between 1.0 and 1.3 miles away from the ship at the abeam position.

 

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[Victory103]

Remember the break is about quickly decelerating to the landing config, and don't forget looking cool, a 30 AoB turn is not going to cut it. You got most of the flop/chop/pop/pull, but no flaps until established downwind.

[Talonx1]

As mentioned, the flat break isnt based on break angle its based on speed and G. Common practice is to pull G that equals 10% of your speed. I.e 300 kts = 3 G. I prefer to hit the airbrake, drop throttle and pull a steady 1.8-2G, letting off the brake and dropping gear and flaps as soon as I hit 250kts. Then apply some pitch trim while still in the turn and level off at or near on speed AoA for the down wind and fine tune trim and altitude as necessary. The final turn is angle based and works because you are (should be) on speed AoA. Also as mentioned there is no 20 deg mark and keep in mind that on the final turn 30 degrees is a guide. It will vary slightly based on wind speed, weight and drag so by the as you hit the 90 deg point on that turn you need to be ready to adjust bank angle to anjust the turn rate and hit your mark on the ball call.

[Druid_]

For a 350kt break I don't use speedbrake and ease off turn and AOB after first 90 degrees else you'll end up tight to the boat. That said tight breaks and continuous turning all the way to trap are fun.

 

 

G loading is important in slowing you down below 250 whereby gear & flap drag can then assist. Load G to slow but also be aware of your spacing from the carrier, so don't be afraid to load, unload for spacing and load G again. There are no hard rules here, it's calling 'flying the aircraft'. If you're too tight then keep some speed and use 45 degrees AOB for a while. Whatever works to get you to the groove at the right height and point.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Druid_

[Fakum]

WOW,,, I wished I would have asked this question a month ago LOL,,,, was I TOTALLY wrong! I some how conviced myself that is what I learned from Lex. I just went back and reviwed and you guys are correct,, he only talks about the 30 deg at the 180 and after a bolter. All this time I ignored those threads that I read about people monitoring G,, I simply thought they were doing something that was not really the correct method. Time to flush my brain! So that solves 1 of the 2 issues I have. I will cover the other issue in another thread once I have this resolved. I struggle a bit with sight picture as to when to break at the 180, I have been looking for the round down before braking, but im not consistent, I usually wind up too long in the break or to short,,,, Thanks guys

[David OC]

When you go to break, open air brake full and bank around 70 degrees (Stay level 800) 3.5 G's 1% of speed, you can do this at 400, even 500 kts @ 5G's. By the time you hit 90 degrees from start your speed should be around 250 kts pulling the correct G's. Drop gear and flaps full @ 250 kts, speed brake will close by itself.

 

Ease off the bank back to 30 degrees and trim for on speed, this will set you up to be around the correct distance for the downwind abeam turn.

Edited July 30, 2018 by David OC

[Talonx1]

WOW,,, I wished I would have asked this question a month ago LOL,,,, was I TOTALLY wrong! I some how conviced myself that is what I learned from Lex. I just went back and reviwed and you guys are correct,, he only talks about the 30 deg at the 180 and after a bolter. All this time I ignored those threads that I read about people monitoring G,, I simply thought they were doing something that was not really the correct method. Time to flush my brain! So that solves 1 of the 2 issues I have. I will cover the other issue in another thread once I have this resolved. I struggle a bit with sight picture as to when to break at the 180, I have been looking for the round down before braking, but im not consistent, I usually wind up too long in the break or to short,,,, Thanks guys

 

I rely largly on the HSI for when to make my turn. Tacan boxed and watch for the ships tacan icon to pass about 10 deg past abeam and start my turn. Recommend starting with about 10 deg past beam then increase as needed. You dont want to go too far or you’ll end up too long in the groove and off glideslope and dont want to start as soon as youre abeam on hsi or you’ll be turning before you actually pass the round down and end up high and not enough time to lineup. I find the display more consistent than trying to eyeball it. You should also do an eye check and compare it to what you see on the hsi because you never know when youre gonna have to do it without tacan or some other problem.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Talonx1

[Fakum]

Quite a difference in how this handles using that technique. I just have to get some more practice in. I dont even use the brake now, and I just back off the throttle just a bit in the turn, by the time im about to roll out on the down wind, my airspeed is at 250 and Im lowering gear and flaps. Not as much time as I had before though for trimming ONSPEED, but Im doing it. I will work on the suggestions for abeam break once i get this under my belt. Thanks guys

[BSS_Sniper]

Don't put the speed brake down and wait til 250 knots to put both the gear and flaps down at the same time. The speed brake will retract on it's own.

[David OC]

Quite a difference in how this handles using that technique. I just have to get some more practice in. I dont even use the brake now, and I just back off the throttle just a bit in the turn, by the time im about to roll out on the down wind, my airspeed is at 250 and Im lowering gear and flaps. Not as much time as I had before though for trimming ONSPEED, but Im doing it. I will work on the suggestions for abeam break once i get this under my belt. Thanks guys

 

It's called a break turn, give it some 80 degree bank and pull on the first turn in with the air brake fully out. 1% of any speed 400 kts 4g turn.

 

You will be at 250kts only half way through the turn if you hit and hold those G's, drop gear and full flaps (Air brake will auto retract), reduce to 30 degree bank for the rest of the turn while slowing and starting to trim for on speed, all before leveling out for the downwind.;) Drive it like you stole it, see ain't no Cadillac limo.

 

To make the downwind easier go past the bow of the ship .5 mile or 1 mile etc, when you get better brake at the bow.:) Breaking at the bow it's almost one continuous turn at 30 degrees and continuous descent after the steep standard brake all the way to landing.

 

See this pic and where the gear and flaps comes down, try that.:) Give it some on the first pull around to the 90 degrees, you will hit 250 kts with full air brake.

 

Edited July 31, 2018 by David OC

[Fakum]

David, thats pretty aggressive LOL,,, but its seems appropriate. Just takes practice I suppose. Thanks for the feedback every one,,,Im glad I asked the question, because I had looked at the great vids out there, I just remembered something wrong and stuck with it,,, this changes the entire dynamics,,,

[David OC]

David, thats pretty aggressive LOL,,, but its seems appropriate. Just takes practice I suppose. Thanks for the feedback every one,,,Im glad I asked the question, because I had looked at the great vids out there, I just remembered something wrong and stuck with it,,, this changes the entire dynamics,,,

 

 

You think that's aggressive.

 

Try this when you really want to get aggressive...:mad:

 

This first break at the stern of the carrier is at 500kts @ 500 feet.

 

[maxTRX]

You think that's aggressive.

 

Try this when you really want to get aggressive...:mad:

 

This first break at the stern of the carrier is at 500kts @ 500 feet.

 

 

Well... #3 was not that impressive, lol

VRS? LSO's would've made a target practice (using 1911's of course!) on this guy's landing light!:gun_sniper:

[Talonx1]

For the break at the bow extend until youre comfortable with getting on speed AoA all trimmed up on the downwind. 1nm is norm, anything short of 4nm is “allowable,” and anything less than 1nm is showboating. :)

 

Personally I shoot for 1.5 nm. Under normal circumstances. If someone else is in the pattern ahead of me then I’ll be watching them on their downwind (or as they bolter) and ensure that I have plenty of space before I break in. There may be a correct way to time that but I generally just make sure that anyone ahead of me is around/past my beam and on their downwind before I break. (Of course if youre in a flight then you break approx 15 seconds after your lead (or who ever is ahead of you in formation) breaks.) But as always 4nm is the max. If you cant make that then get back above the deck and go around again.

[Fakum]

After pecking at this method over a period of a few days hour or 2 here and there, I find it much more exciting and challenging. I need more practice but I must say, this is about the only thing I have had time for since the release, but just doing this is a bucket of joy just by itself! Thanks for getting me on track guys!

[Victory205]

You think that's aggressive.

 

Try this when you really want to get aggressive...:mad:

 

This first break at the stern of the carrier is at 500kts @ 500 feet.

 

 

That's called a "JWB HIX LIG...etc" in the LSO's grade book- "John Wayne Break, High Start, Long in the Groove..."

 

A JWB can offset the HIX and LIG if the LSO is a fighter guy. If he was E2C or S3 back in the day, fuggedaboutit! ;)

[Frederf]

My rule of thumb has been one G break for every 100 knots initial. Break from 3.0g for a 300 knot break, 3.5g for a 350 knot break. It tends to produce a roughly constant turn diameter.

 

One thing I used to do is bank suddenly and then yank stick. The result was very poor altitude control. Later I learned to very smoothly roll on ensuring that VV stays on horizon. The result of that is easily 100' immanence level turn even with high peak G mid turn.

[Fakum]

yes, I am struggling a bit with yanking the stick a bit myself, I am trying some curve settings because my stick is too sensitive, as soon as I pull I fight with maintaining altitude while also tring to stay on G

[Frederf]

The G is the least important thing. VV on horizon is the control and modulation of primarily pull (<45 AOB) and modulation of primarily bank (>45 AOB) should keep you within say +-20' (OK +-50' unless you're a wizard) without too much trouble. It's very blended and conditional like "ok, 10 degrees and things are still OK, 20 degrees and things are still OK, 30 degrees and things are still OK." If things are not OK then they get fixed before the turn gets steeper.

 

Good practice is trying to do level turns (within 10' if you can manage it) at constant throttle away from the airport. They should be entirely symmetrical entering and leaving the turn in terms of time and heading to establish. And get in the habit of correcting to a fixed altitude goal. Bouncing up and down 100' chasing a target altitude is much better than smooth maneuvers off target height.

 

If you achieve your bank and keep level the G will happen by itself. The first and last 30 degrees of turn matter the least in terms of your diameter. The middle ~120 degrees account for almost all of the diameter control so there's not a huge rush to get to that load. Maybe it takes a count of 1-2-3-4 or 1-2-3-4-5 to apply and unapply the load. You might eat up 20-30 degrees heading change beginning the sustained part of the break turn and another 20-30 degrees heading rolling out.

 

You'll see even real operators hurk-and-urk bank and then load as separate actions but there's no real motivation for it.

[maxTRX]

That's called a "JWB HIX LIG...etc" in the LSO's grade book- "John Wayne Break, High Start, Long in the Groove..."

 

A JWB can offset the HIX and LIG if the LSO is a fighter guy. If he was E2C or S3 back in the day, fuggedaboutit! ;)

 

:D, This reminds me of an article in "Fighter Sweep" written by "Paco" (VFC13, flew Tomcats before that) about the art of SHB. He got a little over confident when breaking the deck one day and ended up 20kts too fast and one ball high in close. So... he nudged the nose and pulled back on power tiny bit... power back on... not fast enough! It was like a trap door open up below him.

He slammed hard! Bounced over 1 wire and trapped on 2. He said LSO report was accurate ending with No Grade. Paco goes: "How about an upgrade, I broke the deck didn't I?" LSO: "That was an upgrade!" Paco's RIO was upbeat: "Hey, at least they know we're here" (their squadron's ready room was directly underneath 1 wire)

I just love reading those "back in the day stories".

 

I know, it's OT but the original poster got plenty of answers already:)