pattern questions

[DeltaMike]

Might try my hand at carrier ATC sometime so I'm digging through the CNATRA training manual.

 

First, let's think about the typical multiplayer yardsale with people wanting to take off and land all at the same time in VFR conditions.

 

1. First, I'm assuming "the stack" is always the overhead pattern? So i can clear someone straight in (for an upwind break) or I can tell em to enter the stack at 2000 (or 3000 etc) and that should be self-explanatory?

2. Sounds like you can have up to four flights at the same altitude 90 degrees apart? I don't really want to get into giving people push times, seems like it would be easier to say "Uzi 61, enter the stack at 2000, follow MrPoopyface 11 in" or something like that.

3. If you have to spin, where does that have to occur? Out behind the ship?

 

Thus:

 

1. If an aircraft is in the stack, I can tell them to stay there until I call charlie

2. If an aircraft is on upwind, I can have him climb to 1200 and circle back around to *initial*

3. If an aircraft has left the stack, but isn't on upwind yet, I can tell him to spin it

 

Yes? No?

Edited February 4, 2019 by DeltaMike

[Tholozor]

1. Yes, aircraft should not push down from their assigned marshal altitude unless directed.

2. Yes/No, that's having them spin it back to the start of the pattern (3 miles aft of Mother pattern entry initial, not necessarily the overhead break initial).

3. Yes, but only as long as there isn't another flight already spinning.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Tholozor

[KIO1606688872]

Might try my hand at carrier ATC sometime so I'm digging through the CNATRA training manual.

 

First, let's think about the typical multiplayer yardsale with people wanting to take off and land all at the same time in VFR conditions.

 

1. First, I'm assuming "the stack" is always the overhead pattern? So i can clear someone straight in (for an upwind break) or I can tell em to enter the stack at 2000 (or 3000 etc) and that should be self-explanatory?

2. Sounds like you can have up to four flights at the same altitude 90 degrees apart? I don't really want to get into giving people push times, seems like it would be easier to say "Uzi 61, enter the stack at 2000, follow MrPoopyface 11 in" or something like that.

3. If you have to spin, where does that have to occur? Out behind the ship?

 

Thus:

 

1. If an aircraft is in the stack, I can tell them to stay there until I call charlie

2. If an aircraft is on upwind, I can have him climb to 1200 and circle back around to *initial*

3. If an aircraft has left the stack, but isn't on upwind yet, I can tell him to spin it

 

Yes? No?

 

I'll preface this with in multiplayer you're pretty much just going to have to do whatever works if people don't know the actual procedures. I'll try to describe how it's done and how you should probably do it in multiplayer.

 

1. Yes, the stack is the toilet bowl overhead the boat, starting at 2000'. Everyone should enter the stack by default and have their assigned altitudes and recovery time if you're planning on doing missions. If you're trying to control multiplayer, i'd assign their altitude since it will be non-standard anyway.

 

2. You can have 2 flights opposite circle from each-other for a total of up to 8 jets (2 flights of 4) per 1000'. IRL you'd just look for the other flight at your stack altitude (radar, eyes, etc). In multiplayer I'd give info on what point in the circle they're at (1, 2, 3, 4)

 

3. Spin pattern is for when the pattern is full, or the timing is off. You'd report the initial and be told to spin it, in which case you'd climb at the bow and circle back to the initial (as it shows in the manuals you're looking at).

All flights shall report the initial and proceed as directed. In the event of a spin, flight leads shall initiate a climb at the bow to 1200 feet and remain within 3 NM of the ship, descending astern the ship to arrive at the 3 NM/800 ft initial.

Important thing to note is the climb and 2-3nm arc as you will likely be following the group that was behind you in the stack.

 

 

 

A more hands on approach is probably a good idea if you're trying to control the masses, but there's nothing like seeing everyone coordinated IRL with the radios completely silent, it's impressive

Edited February 4, 2019 by KIO

[DeltaMike]

Ah. The 3km pattern IS the spin. Got it.

 

Yeah I think there's a way to make it work in a casual multiplayer environment. I'm studying the cnatra docs, want to make it immersive but fun and not out of the reach of casual players.

 

Appreciate the advice.

[Lex Talionis]

1 yes

2 no , you do not spin from the pattern. From the pattern you either [edit] depart or turn x-wind to stay in the patt for another trap attempt.

3 yes, once they arrive at the break.

The spin is s tool for aircraft that arrives at the break and the patt is full.

 

The boat patt is more pilot driven than you would think. And this doesn't mean everyone is talking on the radios. It means everyone knows the patt "rules of the road" and follows them.

 

Hope this helps. :)

Edited February 5, 2019 by Lex Talionis

[Tholozor]

From the man himself! Thanks Lex!

[Los]

Best to treat the multiplayer pattern as if you are flying into an uncontrolled airport. State intentions on the servers TS channel or common freq and key eyes open.

[DeltaMike]

 

Hope this helps. :)

 

It does! Thanks! Believe me you're my inspiration for doing this.

 

So, let me run an example, which I think you might see in MP:

 

1. Uzi 6-1 is doing touch-and goes. Occasionally somebody spawns in and takes off from the forward cats. No problems, everybody is happy.

2. Uzi1, flight of two, calls visual at 10nm, I tell them they are clear for the break.

3. 11 and 12 get lined up 3mi back heading for the break. I don't *have* to tell anybody anything -- it's first to the bow. But, I see 61 is still figuring it out, altitude is all over the place and he's taking long downwind legs. So, just to keep the peace, I *could* tell Uzi 6-1 to maintain carrier heading, climb to 2000. I could turn him into the stack while 11 and 12 are landing. Figuring I'll tell him to push when 11 and 12 are situated, and 61 is 5nm abeam.

4. Some dude lines up on the cat and requests takeoff. My plan is to hold him until 11 and 12 both cross the bow, then send him off on the carrier heading staying at 500' for 7 miles.

5. But! Right before 11 and 12 get to the bow, I see MrPoopypants69 come screaming it at 500 knots evidently on a high-speed straight in final, without his radio on. 11 and 12 can probably make it, maybe, but I see a pileup on the deck for sure.

 

I think I know what I want to do, but first what would yall do?

[maxTRX]

... But! Right before 11 and 12 get to the bow, I see MrPoopypants69 come screaming it at 500 knots evidently on a high-speed straight in final, without his radio on...

I think I know what I want to do, but first what would yall do?

 

 

There was a way to deal with "99" Poopypants in FSX environment especially when using a "drivable" boat. The Boss (boat driver) would initiate an immediate hard left or right with the boat... It was always fun to watch Poops rolling out. Then... of course the verbal exchange followed shortly after Poops realized what was happening:megalol:

[Lex Talionis]

.... took me a few passes to wrap my head arround your scenario but i think i have it.

 

At #3 : 61 in the patt would never be told to climb to 2k n the upwind and sent to the stack. If you want him gone, he will be told to depart like everyone else 500 feet brc. And would then return to the break to try again or told to stack. Aircraft in the patt at 600 feet are not told to climb through break aircraft altitude of 800 feet. Altitude deconfliction is retained by simply telling patt aircraft to depart and re enter.

Whats more...

instead of trying to control the aircaft, let 61 figure themselves out and turn x-wing when they can. When the section (11 and 12) arrives at the bow, they can assess if they can break inside of 61, or if they need to allow 61 to finish his x-wind turn then break "with interval" behind 61. If the section runs out of distance after passing the bow trying to figure out their interval such that they can not break by 3nm, then they simply spin and return to try again. Lather, rinse, repeat. With only 1 aircraft in the pattern however, the section should be able to find a hole before or after 61. Even if 61 extends so far upwind that he turns x-wind at 3nm, the section should be able to break in front of 61s x-wind. Typically the only time a section cant break because of sequencing issues, it is due to a full or close to full and strung out patt.

 

Segway to #4

Simply hold the cats untill the patt is un scrued up.

 

On to #5

Who is mr poopypants, and what is a "high speed straight in final? A case 1 "straight in" is simply not a way to enter the patt. Only way to fix "incorrect" is to tell poopypants to enter the patt "correctly" or go home.

 

 

Its a bit hard to explain in txt. My vid may shead some light on it. Or you can catch us in discord.

 

Hope this helps :)

Edited February 6, 2019 by Lex Talionis

[Joker328]

LOL I love that we have a Hornet instructor pilot seriously considering the ridiculous scenarios you only get with a bunch of us goofballs in MP. Gotta love DCS.

[Strikeeagle345]

Mr. Poopypants BUAHAHA

[DeltaMike]

 

Its a bit hard to explain in txt. My vid may shead some light on it. Or you can catch us in discord.

 

Hope this helps :)

 

Thanks Lex, believe it or not you actually answered several of my questions. I like the vids, keep em coming. We may be goofballs but we appreciate you!

 

The fact that the pattern kinda flies itself is good for multiplayer, guess all it really needs is the occasional advisory. "All flights be advised, there appears to be a fire on the poop deck." "BRC is now 200. 210. 220. Sheesh, stand by." "Negative Mr.Poopypants, the pattern is full!" That kinda stuff