Way we not have any airliners?

[Northstar98]

These airliners are some large incredibly detailed products with all their systems modeled and already cost about $90

 

As an owner of one of these :megalol:

[SharpeXB]

As an owner of one of these :megalol:

Yes I own a 767-300 and A320 for another sim. Not IRL :music_whistling:

They’re pretty amazing in their accuracy and systems.

[msalama]

Keep DCS doing what it supposed to do.

 

Let a developer decide what DCS is supposed to do by giving them a free hand to develop what they want. Don't like it? Don't buy it. It's that simple really.

[SharpeXB]

Let a developer decide what DCS is supposed to do by giving them a free hand to develop what they want. Don't like it? Don't buy it. It's that simple really.

3rd party devs wouldn’t make airliners for DCS because they can sell 10x the number of those on other sims. And DCS would expect a damage model which would cost too much to make.

[Northstar98]

And DCS would expect a damage model which would cost too much to make.

 

What is the logic behind this?

[SharpeXB]

What is the logic behind this?

Every module in DCS has a DM.

[Northstar98]

Every module in DCS has a DM.

 

Which is kinda my point

 

How is an airline damage model going to differ than any other damage model, now I could be projecting but your making it sound like a damage model is going to be a hurdle when it's no different to any other module.

[SharpeXB]

Which is kinda my point

 

How is an airline damage model going to differ than any other damage model, now I could be projecting but your making it sound like a damage model is going to be a hurdle when it's no different to any other module.

Can you imagine how elaborate a DM would be for an aircraft this large and complex? Again these things cost $90 without a DM. And not enough of them would sell outside a civ sim environment which offers much more for this type of plane.

[Northstar98]

Can you imagine how elaborate a DM would be for an aircraft this large and complex? Again these things cost $90 without a DM. And not enough of them would sell outside a civ sim environment which offers much more for this type of plane.

 

Why would the DM need to be any more complicated than what we already have? Yes it's bigger but it's the same sort of systems, I really, seriously don't understand this argument.

 

As for them costing $90 yeah, this isn't a case for a quality module, I mean you'd expect it to be so but usually with these other sims you get systems and that's it, questionable/poorly implemented FDM, graphics are probably up to scratch in most cases but nothing much else...

 

As far as I can see DCS offers everything apart from huge maps and weather, everything else it has or there's an equivalent for it.

[Vinny002]

Hi, guys!

 

I migrated from FSX and x-plane to DCS world because FSX is 12 years old, and x-plane graphics is not as pretty as the graphics in DCS world!!

 

Cheers,

Vincent

[SharpeXB]

Why would the DM need to be any more complicated than what we already have? Yes it's bigger but it's the same sort of systems, I really, seriously don't understand this argument.

 

As for them costing $90 yeah, this isn't a case for a quality module, I mean you'd expect it to be so but usually with these other sims you get systems and that's it, questionable/poorly implemented FDM, graphics are probably up to scratch in most cases but nothing much else...

 

As far as I can see DCS offers everything apart from huge maps and weather, everything else it has or there's an equivalent for it.

DCS has high standards so I don’t see them skimping on quality and if they did then why would someone buy a poorly done module for DCSW which itself isn’t even the right environment for airliners?

The airliners for these other sims are top notch, Boeing licensed products.

You’re saying DCS should do airliners because it’s standards are so high and then saying they should skimp on them to make airliners feasible?

And lacking a global map is a big deal. Nobody wants to fly an airliner in circles around Vegas or the Caususes. They want to be able to fly from anywhere to anywhere with hundreds of airports to choose from. DCSW can’t offer that.

Give it up already this isn’t going to happen.

[Northstar98]

DCS has high standards so I don’t see them skimping on quality and if they did then why would someone buy a poorly done module for DCSW which itself isn’t even the right environment for airliners?

The airliners for these other sims are top notch, Boeing licensed products.

You’re saying DCS should do airliners because it’s standards are so high and then saying they should skimp on them to make airliners feasible?

 

Seeing as you completely dodged the previous question (surprise surprise), I'll ask again, how is the DM going to be any different for an airliner than any other complex jet already in DCS?

 

How is implementing a damage model that's as complex as any of the complex jets we have in DCS considered a skimp in your mind?

 

And once again the FDMs of these sims? "top notch" :lol: I don't think so... I'm sorry but I was an MSFSX player for years before coming to DCS, I was immediately attracted to DCS over MSFSX because of the better immersion and better FDM without comprimising on systems implementation (in fact IMO they're better implemented in DCS).

 

The arguments you continue to make are just baffling, where would they have to "skimp" to make an airliner possible.

 

And lacking a global map is a big deal. Nobody wants to fly an airliner in circles around Vegas or the Caususes.

 

True, and then there's the awful DCS ATC and the awful DCS weather, but you were making the argument about the damage modelling, because that's apparently some humongous hurdle stopping airliners.

 

I am not even for airliners per se, I'm just not partial to silly arguments...

 

They want to be able to fly from anywhere to anywhere with hundreds of airports to choose from.

 

I gave that up for a superior flight model, stop speaking for me. The map is a big deal and I agree this is a big shortfall as is the weather, as is the ATC.

 

As far as modules are concerned I wouldn't go above short-haul stuff, I wouldn't go any bigger than an Avro RJ100.

 

Again, I'm not really interested in airliners in DCS, personally my priorities for what I'd like to see lie elsewhere... I'm not however going to block them, when DCS offers a better FDM.

[SharpeXB]

how is the DM going to be any different for an airliner than any other complex jet already in DCS?

Of course it’s not impossible to make a DM for an airliner. It would just add to the cost of the product which is already higher than any DCS module. A very high cost for the module wouldn’t make it feasible to sell for DCSW.

[Northstar98]

Of course it’s not impossible to make a DM for an airliner. It would just add to the cost of the product which is already higher than any DCS module. A very high cost for the module wouldn’t make it feasible to sell for DCSW.

 

But why would such a damage model be more complex than anything else in DCS? I'm not sure if I'm projecting here but this is what it sounds like.

 

And just because on another flight sim an airliner is $90 doesn't necessarily mean it will be on DCS for example there's a Su-27 addon available for $32 it pales in comparison to the DCS version, the DCS version is superior in every single aspect, apart from a clickable cockpit (though the Su-27 addon has only bare bones functionality and almost none of it's systems simulated) and yet the DCS version is less than half that cost by itself. I'm not saying that DCS is necessarily cheaper, but using the fact that some other sim is really expensive doesn't mean that DCS will follow suite, especially considering civilian aircraft are easier to simulate. Easy access to data, easy access to SMEs, no combat systems of any sort, sure pretty intense navigation and other such systems but nothing beyond the realms of anything in DCS at the moment, if you take a 'weighted average' of the systems implementation in DCS and compare.

[SharpeXB]

And just because on another flight sim an airliner is $90 doesn't necessarily mean it will be on DCS

Why would a vendor sell a product for less when the DCS version would require an extensive extra feature? Plus a product like this would sell fewer copies in this sim compared to those others.

 

This forum is the wrong place to ask all these questions. Ask those other developers directly.

Edited March 18, 2019 by SharpeXB

[msalama]

because they can sell 10x the number of those on other sims

 

They could port some existing airliners over to DCS and add the DM. Anyway, the point is should they choose to do so it'd be their decision, not yours.

[Cake]

The advantage of moving civilian sims to DCS is the flight and systems models could be at a higher level. This is appealing.

 

The disadvantages include things mentioned like limited world size, too basic ATC system and insufficient infrastructure. This might not be so appealing to developers.

 

I would be very surprised if ED turned down a skilled civilian developer who wanted to bring a DCS level Boeing or Airbus ..... Imagine a full blown 767 with its associated tanker version? ... I think the better explanation is that DCS as a system needs some more things to make it compelling to develop airliners for.

 

Someday, DCS will hopefully cover the earth. ATC will be realistic. Fixing these things would benefit us, and perhaps they will make the DCS environment broaden to more possibilities.

 

I think the argument that airliners and other civilian aircraft have no place in DCS world is a little like saying houses, casinos, bridges, and non combat boats don't belong either. Seriously? DCS primarily simulates aircraft, not cars and gamblers.

[SharpeXB]

They could port some existing airliners over to DCS and add the DM. Anyway, the point is should they choose to do so it'd be their decision, not yours.

Right, so go ask them instead of posting it here.

[msalama]

Right, so I won't since I've no strong opinions about this one way or another. This OK to you, or should we tango some more?

[Northstar98]

Why would a vendor sell a product for less when the DCS version would require an extensive extra feature? Plus a product like this would sell fewer copies in this sim compared to those others.

 

This forum is the wrong place to ask all these questions. Ask those other developers directly.

 

What?

 

Once again why would the damage model need to be any more extensive than anything else in DCS, for the 5th freaking time... I do not understand at all.

 

As for pricing you tell me, I've given you an example of an overpriced module on another sim and compared it to a far better (FDM, graphics, systems implementation) albeit non-clickable in DCS that is less than half the cost (maybe ED are just a bit more fair with their pricing, rather than something that skimps on quality sold for more than double).

 

I don't think we're going to get anywhere further, I mean you've brought up the fact that a damage model for an airliner is going to be the complicated feature that stands to block it while never justifying it, you've told me that because xxxx is expensive if xxxx were to be made for DCS must be at least that price, no wait more expensive because damage model...

 

I mean if you give me a choice $90 for something that has good systems modelling and not much more and $50 for something that is more immersive, far superior FDM, damage modelling, and systems implementation (that are just as if not better than the $90 module) guess which I'm going to spend money on. I mean could it be that these modules are overpriced? Sure you decide what is and what isn't fine, but personally it sounds that way.

 

The advantage of moving civilian sims to DCS is the flight and systems models could be at a higher level. This is appealing.

 

The disadvantages include things mentioned like limited world size, too basic ATC system and insufficient infrastructure. This might not be so appealing to developers.

 

I would be very surprised if ED turned down a skilled civilian developer who wanted to bring a DCS level Boeing or Airbus ..... Imagine a full blown 767 with its associated tanker version? ... I think the better explanation is that DCS as a system needs some more things to make it compelling to develop airliners for.

 

Someday, DCS will hopefully cover the earth. ATC will be realistic. Fixing these things would benefit us, and perhaps they will make the DCS environment broaden to more possibilities.

 

I think the argument that airliners and other civilian aircraft have no place in DCS world is a little like saying houses, casinos, bridges, and non combat boats don't belong either. Seriously? DCS primarily simulates aircraft, not cars and gamblers.

 

This.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Northstar98

[SharpeXB]

What?

 

Snip...

This is all getting off topic for DCS. You should contact some other vendor if you want to ask these kind of questions or why they price products the way they do.

Ask them to make their product for DCS and see what response they have.

Edited March 18, 2019 by SharpeXB

[Northstar98]

This is all getting off topic for DCS. You should contact some other vendor if you want to ask these kind of questions or why they price products the way they do.

Ask them to make their product for DCS and see what response they have.

 

Aaaaand we've dodged it again!

 

Off-topic? Clutching at straws much? This whole load of nonsense was your argument... pot calling the kettle black etc..

 

I'm not going to ask developers of other sims to make aircraft for DCS, I can imagine that being at least semi-disastrous. I even said I wasn't interested in them, as I feel there are far more pressing issues to work on rather than just add more, quality over quantity etc.

 

Look I'll even quote myself...

 

... I'm not really interested in airliners in DCS, personally my priorities for what I'd like to see lie elsewhere... I'm not however going to block them, when DCS offers a better FDM.

 

I'm just not gonna start flailing my arms in the air, screeching the house down if somebody makes one... I'm certainly not going to block one, I think you picking one of the most expensive (and overpriced in my opinion) modules, saying look this is an airliner and look how much it costs, wait until you add damage modelling" is one of the most fallacious arguments I've seen.

 

At least I got one prediction right

I reckon this whole debate about DM is going to go nowhere as it usually does

 

I'm so done...

Edited March 18, 2019 by Northstar98

[SharpeXB]

Off-topic?

How other vendors price their products for other sims is veering off topic.

 

I'm not going to ask developers of other sims to make aircraft for DCS

Well that’s the only way you will get your questions answered.

 

saying look this is an airliner and look how much it costs, wait until you add damage modelling" is one of the most fallacious arguments I've seen.

Why? it’s logical. Would they add a damage model for no extra charge? I doubt it.

[Northstar98]

SharpeXB said:

Well that’s the only way you will get your questions answered.

Well my question was why an airliner damage model would need to be more complex than any other module, which was your argument. I also wanted to know why an airliner module in DCS would necessarily cost $90 which was again your argument...

SharpeXB said:

Why? it’s logical. Would they add a damage model for no extra charge? I doubt it.

You are completely missing the point of what I said, you purposefully picked one of the most expensive airliner modules for a sim and used it as a baseline for an airliner module. Taking an extreme and using it as an average...

That to me is a fallacious argument, especially when you can get other aircraft, that are to a suitable standard, for a much smaller fraction of the cost of your example...

Edited January 24, 2022 by Northstar98
formatting

[SharpeXB]

Well my question was why an airliner damage model would need to be more complex than any other module, which was your argument. I also wanted to know why an airliner module in DCS would necessarily cost $90 which was again your argument...

A DM for an airliner would be complex simply due to the size of the aircraft and complexity of its systems. The $90 cost is what a current high end product like this costs for another sim. No doubt a DCS version would be of similar quality. Since that civ sim versions doesn’t have a DM, it’s a safe assumption that adding one would push the cost higher.

 

You are completely missing the point of what I said, you purposefully picked one of the most expensive airliner modules for a sim and used it as a baseline for an airliner module. Taking an extreme and using it as an average...

DCS has high standards so I’m picking something of equal quality for comparison.