AIM120B visual mode cannot track incoming missiles

[Rabbisaur]

Hi, I found this bug yesterday. I tried to use AIM120B to intercept incoming missiles at 5NM. But the missiles cannot track and intercept. It cannot see the incoming missiles at all although I was head on and lower than the incoming missile.

[Rabbisaur]

Any one from dev team has seen this? I thing, compared with how ARMAAMs work on F18, this is bug of F15.

[GGTharos]

Your report doesn't say anything useful.

 

What missiles are you trying to track? Where's the track file?

[Rabbisaur]

Your report doesn't say anything useful.

 

What missiles are you trying to track? Where's the track file?

 

Please be constructive... doesn't say anything useful is not accurate. My description is clear.

 

AIM120B on F15 fired in visual mode cannot track on any head on missiles in 5NM range.

 

It should be able to intercept all incoming missiles except for really small ones such as R60, AIM9 or R73.

 

It should be able to 100% detect and intercept at least the following: AIM54, R77, R27, AIM7, Big SAMs such as BUK or KUB, and another ARMAAM if you can see it...

 

I will upload a track when I got home today.

[XtraChrisP]

Please be constructive... doesn't say anything useful is not accurate. My description is clear.

 

AIM120B on F15 fired in visual mode cannot track on any head on missiles in 5NM range.

 

It should be able to intercept all incoming missiles except for really small ones such as R60, AIM9 or R73.

 

It should be able to 100% detect and intercept at least the following: AIM54, R77, R27, AIM7, Big SAMs such as BUK or KUB, and another ARMAAM if you can see it...

 

I will upload a track when I got home today.

 

Is this true?!?!? How long have we had the ability to intercept air to air missiles? SHOULD we have the ability to intercept them? Is that a capability that exists in real life? I'm so confused yet intrigued...

[Rabbisaur]

Is this true?!?!? How long have we had the ability to intercept air to air missiles? SHOULD we have the ability to intercept them? Is that a capability that exists in real life? I'm so confused yet intrigued...

 

There is no magic involved. If the radar of the active radar homing missile can see a target. It will go to that target. And a missile is a non evading target. So PK is very high. AIM54 was designed to intercept missiles in the first place, its PK of incoming antiship missiles at 62NM as reported by Heatblur is over 95%.

 

ARMAAM can also intercept incoming missiles, and due to ARMAAM is smaller and more manoeuvrable, it can intercept non evading target within 7NM at almost 100% PK.

 

It is supposed to be like this. Otherwise AIM54s are so OP in DCS.

[Rabbisaur]

Is this true?!?!? How long have we had the ability to intercept air to air missiles? SHOULD we have the ability to intercept them? Is that a capability that exists in real life? I'm so confused yet intrigued...

 

If you have DCS F18, you can try aim120 on it, within 5NM and head on, PK for AIM54, AIM7, AIM120, R77, R27, BUK, KUB should be 100%.

[GGTharos]

Nope ... the end.

 

The bug here is that the game really lets you do this with any reasonable success ratio.

No one does it in reality because that's now what missile fuzes are tuned for, and it's also highly unlikely to get a direct hit. Very likely the missile won't even have time to steer properly at such launch ranges since it has to get past its safety checks first, and that incoming missile is cruising in at the speed of heat.

 

It should be able to 100% detect and intercept at least the following: AIM54, R77, R27, AIM7, Big SAMs such as BUK or KUB, and another ARMAAM if you can see it...

Edited May 1, 2019 by GGTharos

[DD_Fenrir]

There is no magic involved. If the radar of the active radar homing missile can see a target. It will go to that target. And a missile is a non evading target. So PK is very high. AIM54 was designed to intercept missiles in the first place, its PK of incoming antiship missiles at 62NM as reported by Heatblur is over 95%.

 

ARMAAM can also intercept incoming missiles, and due to ARMAAM is smaller and more manoeuvrable, it can intercept non evading target within 7NM at almost 100% PK.

 

It is supposed to be like this. Otherwise AIM54s are so OP in DCS.

 

Wow. you're so far off the mark I don't know where to begin.

 

You realise there is a significant difference in both RCS and cruise velocity between a late Soviet era anti-ship missile and an medium range A2A missile...?!?!

[Rabbisaur]

Wow. you're so far off the mark I don't know where to begin.

 

You realise there is a significant difference in both RCS and cruise velocity between a late Soviet era anti-ship missile and an medium range A2A missile...?!?!

 

It is said that you are talking it all out of your mind and without proper thinking.

 

Same for you: I hope, "you realize there is a significant difference in AIM54(late 60s tech) and ARMAAM(late 90s tech)."

 

I hope you have evidence showing that ARMAAM cannot detect and track RCS of a midium range A2A missile.

[Rabbisaur]

Nope ... the end.

 

The bug here is that the game really lets you do this with any reasonable success ratio.

No one does it in reality because that's now what missile fuzes are tuned for, and it's also highly unlikely to get a direct hit. Very likely the missile won't even have time to steer properly at such launch ranges since it has to get past its safety checks first, and that incoming missile is cruising in at the speed of heat.

 

Please provide hard evidence before saying a definite "nope ... the end".

 

And a missile coming at you at mach 1.5 at 5NM range allows ARMAAM more than enough time to react.

 

BTW, I'm talking about intercepting incoming missiles that has been fired at 15NM distance. This does not work when the launcher aircraft is also close by, because: 1. missile is coming at you too fast, 2. ARMAAM will 100% go to the launcher aircraft because it has a bigger reflection.

[GGTharos]

Please provide hard evidence to prove your statement. In fact, please provide the AMRAAM launch timeline including maneuver restriction release for safety, the scanning speed of the seeker, the seeker's programmed search parameters and the probability of detection an acquisition of a target with parameters similar to that of an approaching AAM.

 

Please, go ahead.

 

Otherwise nope...the end.

 

EDIT: And if said aircraft has larger RCS anyway, what makes you think the missile won't go for it instead of the missile at ANY distance? Just because the game cuts thing off at 10nm, doesn't mean the real missile would.

 

Please provide hard evidence before saying a definite "nope ... the end".

 

And a missile coming at you at mach 1.5 at 5NM range allows ARMAAM more than enough time to react.

[Rabbisaur]

Please provide hard evidence to prove your statement. In fact, please provide the AMRAAM launch timeline including maneuver restriction release for safety, the scanning speed of the seeker, the seeker's programmed search parameters and the probability of detection an acquisition of a target with parameters similar to that of an approaching AAM.

 

Please, go ahead.

 

Otherwise nope...the end.

 

You should provide evidence... Not me. Because you said something definite, I left everything open.

 

And according to rule 1.16, neither of us can do it. So please be constructive. And stop say hard no without evidence.

 

It is quite reasonable for a modern A2A missile design. Even old SAMs can detect and intercept incoming Anti radiation missiles. We have reason to assume this is possible, not the other way...

Edited May 1, 2019 by Rabbisaur

[Rabbisaur]

 

EDIT: And if said aircraft has larger RCS anyway, what makes you think the missile won't go for it instead of the missile at ANY distance? Just because the game cuts thing off at 10nm, doesn't mean the real missile would.

 

Because the launcher aircraft cranked after launch, you can do a little cranking at the same direction and put the missile to the side. So there will only be the incoming missile in the FOV of the ARMAAM when you launch it. Also the missile is much closer to you than the aircraft. Thus it may have a larger RCS.

 

I'm talking about the game mechanism, not in the real world. In DCS su27 can receive D/L from E3, I don't think it should be possible in real world, so let's focus only on the game. It is a game after all. Talking about real world is against rule 1.16. Please stop asking for that information or using it as an argument.

 

As long as it is possible, there is no reason to say a hard no... I hope you understand what I mean. No offense.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Rabbisaur

[Rabbisaur]

I really want to hear from members of the dev team.

[mvsgas]

Rule 1.16 tells us :

Posting images, file links, and file sharing links of military aircraft documents newer than 1980 is strictly prohibited on our forums. Such posts will be removed.

 

But it does not say you can't tell us the manual title that tells you missile can do this. So where do you get this info? I am dying to know.

[Rabbisaur]

Rule 1.16 tells us :

Posting images, file links, and file sharing links of military aircraft documents newer than 1980 is strictly prohibited on our forums. Such posts will be removed.

 

But it does not say you can't tell us the manual title that tells you missile can do this. So where do you get this info? I am dying to know.

 

No, the rule is there for a very good reason. Please at least show you respect to the admin team.

 

Please keep your mind open. Before saying some thing is impossible, use your knowledge of physics and other sciences. It is quite possible. I didn't say it definitely can do this in the real world. But of course not a hard-no or impossible.

 

DCS game mechanism, as see on F18 and some SAM systems, is allowing this. F15 using the same missile should have same behavior as the ones on F18 in the game. And please don't say obvious and non-relevant things such as: game missiles are different from real life. Lets focus only on the game. Please don't repeat any question outside this bug report.

 

The behavior of ARMAAM on F15 is different than ARMAAM on F18. And that is something that I want to notify the dev team. And they will decide what to do to their game.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Rabbisaur

[mvsgas]

So no manual title? No paper title? ok thanks

[Rabbisaur]

So no manual title? No paper? ok thanks

 

No, nothing I can tell you about it. You can find them yourself, outside of this forum and outside of this game, if you are really dying to know.

[blkspade]

The in game A-A missiles don't seem to possess any sort of RCS, unlike A-G. Its apparent that A-G ones are specifically coded to have an RCS (no real radar modeling happening) solely so that they can be engaged by SAMs, but it allows them to be intercepted by fighters as well. I did bring up an argument many years ago though (before the F-14 was even gonna be a thing in DCS) that the AIM-54 should show up on radar if the big Russian HARMs do, as they have very similar dimensions. Heck mavericks even show up. I hugely doubt a 1970s missile with a huge smoke plume is designed in anyway to be specifically low observable. Certain SAMs also have a RCS as well, but its like a random couple that I don't even remember. We've all heard that external weapons effect a jets RCS, so to some extent on their own should have some type of RCS. It does border on implausible to expect to be able engage small AIMs though.

Edited May 1, 2019 by blkspade

[GGTharos]

External weapons come with racks and pylons which may also form corner reflectors. It's not the weapon alone. Obviously anything has an RCS.

 

As far as the game goes, missiles being particularly visible may or may not cause issues with AI, and in any case the purpose of the OP writing about it is just purely ridiculous.

[blkspade]

The AI just knows what and where missiles are precisely though if they have LOS with the cockpit. I've watched the AI pull a last second notch on the current AIM7 (in multiple tests runs) because it knew that it couldn't outrun it. I can't say I have ever seen AI fighters try and shoot down harms/Mavs that we know show up on radar in DCS. I know the mounting hardware is apart of the equation IRL, its just obvious that the A-A weapons are being explicitly excluded in DCS.

[Rabbisaur]

External weapons come with racks and pylons which may also form corner reflectors. It's not the weapon alone. Obviously anything has an RCS.

 

As far as the game goes, missiles being particularly visible may or may not cause issues with AI, and in any case the purpose of the OP writing about it is just purely ridiculous.

 

I totally agree with you I didn't have to mention about OP thing at all. It was ridiculous. Let's set the OP BS aside. And focus on resolving different behaviors of the same ARMAAMs on F15 and F18.

[FoxAlfa]

Although an idea intercepting an Air to Air missile looks quite possible on the first glance there are so many technical things that make it almost impossible in RL.

 

First would be missile fuze delay, there are well documented cases patriots intercepting SCUDs in Gulf war just to detonate too late to do any damage to it... in the end am not sure that and Air to Air missile would have enough mass to trigger the fuze at all.

 

Second issue would filtering the radar returns. RCS of the Air to Air missile head-on is very small comparing to any AGM. Even if the missile did have the power to detect it, setting a missile seeker to such a low threshold would make the missile chase birds, rainy clouds, ground returns.

 

Third issue would be intercepting such small constantly maneuvering target, there are well documented issues on US Navy having quite a difficult time intercepting ASMs like Kh-31 with dedicated equipment like ASGIS and CWIS.. with Kh-31 being much bigger and predictable target... simply it takes time with the current equipment to build up the picture and figure out what is going on with the target... the time that simplify doesn't exist with head-on shots at such speeds... and here I am not entering even the manoeuvre requirements that would be needed for such intercept

 

Not to go even deeper, even if possible it would be highly impracticable since such a shot would have a very small odds of being successful, while a manoeuvre of turning you aircraft into an incoming missile would maximize the doppler returns and reduce the intercepting time that would increase its Pk of you by a huge degree

[blkspade]

Although an idea intercepting an Air to Air missile looks quite possible on the first glance there are so many technical things that make it almost impossible in RL.

 

First would be missile fuze delay, there are well documented cases patriots intercepting SCUDs in Gulf war just to detonate too late to do any damage to it... in the end am not sure that and Air to Air missile would have enough mass to trigger the fuze at all.

 

Second issue would filtering the radar returns. RCS of the Air to Air missile head-on is very small comparing to any AGM. Even if the missile did have the power to detect it, setting a missile seeker to such a low threshold would make the missile chase birds, rainy clouds, ground returns.

 

Third issue would be intercepting such small constantly maneuvering target, there are well documented issues on US Navy having quite a difficult time intercepting ASMs like Kh-31 with dedicated equipment like ASGIS and CWIS.. with Kh-31 being much bigger and predictable target... simply it takes time with the current equipment to build up the picture and figure out what is going on with the target... the time that simplify doesn't exist with head-on shots at such speeds... and here I am not entering even the manoeuvre requirements that would be needed for such intercept

 

Not to go even deeper, even if possible it would be highly impracticable since such a shot would have a very small odds of being successful, while a manoeuvre of turning you aircraft into an incoming missile would maximize the doppler returns and reduce the intercepting time that would increase its Pk of you by a huge degree

The one thing dcs already does is that missiles already fuse on each other. All aspect IR missiles will lock on incoming missiles with the motor burning and destroy them. You can shoot down your own MRMs by double tapping too quickly on the same target while accelerating.

 

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