How do you see missiles without icons?

[tmdgm]

I've been trying to play this game without icons, and I can't see a missile until the split second before it hits. Even when it's a radar missile, I get the RWR alert, I still can't see it until the split second before it hits. Even the R-27's and sparrows that have the smoke trail. I'm having the same problems with the WOE series, but there's no icons so I'm forced to guess in that one.

[Mugatu]

I can only see them if I pick them up of the launch rail at 12nm or closer .. when you can still see the smoke plume. I don't think the missiles or the smoke plume is visible enough according to real world accounts, especially high altitude launches.

 

 

I've been trying to play this game without icons, and I can't see a missile until the split second before it hits. Even when it's a radar missile, I get the RWR alert, I still can't see it until the split second before it hits. Even the R-27's and sparrows that have the smoke trail. I'm having the same problems with the WOE series, but there's no icons so I'm forced to guess in that one.

[wed]

I've been trying to play this game without icons, and I can't see a missile until the split second before it hits. Even when it's a radar missile, I get the RWR alert, I still can't see it until the split second before it hits. Even the R-27's and sparrows that have the smoke trail. I'm having the same problems with the WOE series, but there's no icons so I'm forced to guess in that one.

Try to manevring a little bit (:

[Tony38195]

You wouldn't be able to see the missle in real life too. All missles, even those with engine smoke burn out and fly on energy most of the time when they hit you.

The only missles you can really identify visually are sidewinders or othe short range stuff. In BVR engagements you have to trust your feeling and try to guess by knowing the bandits distance, approach speed and the time since you got the first launch warning.

If you fly russian planes and are attacked by an amraam, be aware that you can track the missle with your RWR directly when it goes active, since it becomes your primary showing threat by then.

[Aeroscout]

It's about a 1 year learning curve. Even I'm not that great, and I've had lockon for more than a year.

 

Play online. You'll get shot down a lot, but you'll learn a lot faster than against the AI.

 

As for techniques on evading the missiles in a BVR engagements, check out www.flankertraining.com/ironhand. you'll find your self going back there again and again.

 

hope this helps

[Boneski]

You can use missile padlock... Use the RWR to get the direction of the threat and the keep hitting Missile padlock. If you have a program type joystick you can make a macro that will continue to send the command for missile padlock while you slew the view around to aid in the pick up.

 

 

It helps with SAMS as well.

 

Good Luck

 

-Bones

[tmdgm]

Shoot, I can't even see the short range sidewinders and R-27ET's. I like the padlock missile idea. At least that's something that could help.

 

Wow, 1 year to get used to it. I can see me using icons for just a while more. I can barely survive with icons on, it's 100% guaranteed to die with icons off.

[Dudikoff]

I can barely survive with icons on, it's 100% guaranteed to die with icons off.

 

Well, it's kind of real as there are no guarantees in combat.

 

To quote Clint Eastwood from 'The Rookie': "If you want guarantees, buy a toster." :)

[Boneski]

Yeah give missile padlock a go. That combined with Labels on will let you see how the missiles fly in. Seeing what killed you will help you

 

Good Luck!

[Topo]

...but don't wait too long time before disable icons and padlock; learn to use all your sensor and train your situational awarness; if you like realism, IMHO it's more fun.

 

Saluti :-)

[tmdgm]

Thanks, I'll give it a try, but this is tough probably isn't a good enough word. right now it's impossible. Even if I can survive 1 out of 10 would be nice. I just can't see squat, don't know when to break and barrel roll. Long range, short range, both are impossible. I'll keep trying, but getting wasted every single time gets old quick. It's usually, where is it, where is it, where is it, there it ...boom.

[Tony38195]

Its really not that hard as the guys here make it look. You just have to relax and use speed, distance and altitude for you. If you are in an open BVR engagement and are armed for it just fly high, fire your ordinance at the right distance and don't get greedy. Meaning, just roll, and reverse your direction using your altitude to gain speed. A bandit has to be really close to get you while you are going away at mach 1+ and go low. It also depends on wich plane you fly. With a mig29 for example its always good to run and hide. Basically you fire your ETs and 77s and then go on EOS and hide in terrain.

In a Su27 or F15 you would be high and fast to maximize your range etc.

 

In singleplayer there is the problem of the stupid wingman. Try flying online while in TS with a wingman. This way you have someone tracking the bandits and really cover them while you are running blind.

[Reaper-6]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6639157280870643805&q=F+pole&total=139&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0:)

 

...courtesy of 199th VNFS LOCsta.

[tmdgm]

Its really not that hard as the guys here make it look. You just have to relax and use speed, distance and altitude for you. If you are in an open BVR engagement and are armed for it just fly high, fire your ordinance at the right distance and don't get greedy. Meaning, just roll, and reverse your direction using your altitude to gain speed. A bandit has to be really close to get you while you are going away at mach 1+ and go low. It also depends on wich plane you fly. With a mig29 for example its always good to run and hide. Basically you fire your ETs and 77s and then go on EOS and hide in terrain.

In a Su27 or F15 you would be high and fast to maximize your range etc.

 

In singleplayer there is the problem of the stupid wingman. Try flying online while in TS with a wingman. This way you have someone tracking the bandits and really cover them while you are running blind.

 

Um, why is it good to run and hide in the 29? Also, how can you turn away if you are firing sparrows and R-27R's? So Su 27 and 15 should be high and fast to maximize range? Missile range?

 

I think I'm ok in BVR cuz you get the missile launch warning. Except you can't do the F-pole thing and pull up and barrel roll (unless you are fighting against an amraam). It's the med and short range that kills me.

[tmdgm]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6639157280870643805&q=F+pole&total=139&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0:)

 

...courtesy of 199th VNFS LOCsta.

 

That video helps, but it's only good against ARH's. You know when to break. If it's SARH, you don't know when to break without icons.

[GGTharos]

Yes you do. You estimate, or force the missile to show a contrail.

[tmdgm]

Yes you do. You estimate, or force the missile to show a contrail.

 

Ok, I must have spent too much time in WW2 sims. How do you estimate, or force the missile to show a contrail?

 

Also, this is great for BVR, but I would've thought I could see the missiles fairly clearly at short/med range.

[Boneski]

One thing is for sure.... If you are flying combat... You have to assume that the most effective system will be deployed against you.

 

\So its not clear how you will force cons out of a missile in the game....

In the air a turning missile is losing energy and that a good thing

 

GG are you saying give the missile guide problems with your angle off causing the missle to turn making the smoke more visible?

[skinners]

I switched from a 17"CRT to 22" LCD.

Screen size means a lot in this sim.

[Weta43]

TMDGM - Maybe start out practicing no labels against AIM-54's, they're the easiest to see, & you get a nice long warning on the RWR as they go active.

[GGTharos]

Ok, I must have spent too much time in WW2 sims. How do you estimate, or force the missile to show a contrail?

 

You estimate ... you get used to it. You know that a missile launched to you at such and such range will take about this long to get to you - you know how long it takes you to do some of your maneuvers, so you maneuver and you know 'it's time' which is when you look for the missile, or evade it blindly.

 

To force it to show contrails, make it pull G's, they make a contrail like the ones you see come off of airplane's wingtips during high-g maneuvers. You'll see it when its really close and you must react instantly.

If the missile doesn't contrail, keep up the maneuvers, if its out of energy (thus no contrail) it won't hit you so long as you keep maneuvering.

 

Also, this is great for BVR, but I would've thought I could see the missiles fairly clearly at short/med range.

 

No you can't. They're tiny.

[GGTharos]

\So its not clear how you will force cons out of a missile in the game....

In the air a turning missile is losing energy and that a good thing

 

Make it pull G's. Fly a vertical snake (after putting your target on the gimbals of course).

 

GG are you saying give the missile guide problems with your angle off causing the missle to turn making the smoke more visible?

 

Nope, see above :)

[tmdgm]

Is there a chart (cheat sheet) available for timing of missiles? That would be useful. If not, maybe I'll try to make one up.

 

Vertical snake? Is that doing a weave going vertical? Going down I'm assuming.

 

Also, I'll try that with Aim 54 and see how that goes. I also have 19" monitor. But sounds like these things are small to see anyway.

 

So bandit is 10-15 nm. I fire an amraam and get a missile warning. I'm sure maneuvers are different every time, but what typically do you do? I've been watching all those training videos and say to F-pole and pull up at the last second. That works against amraams or with icons. Doesn't work on SARH without icons. Sounds like you don't just F-pole, that you are doing maneuvering the whole time?

 

Short range, I'm just maneuvering any which way I can, usually lots of elevator back pressure and split S type maneuvers. Trouble here is knowing when a launch happens. Sometimes I get missile launch warnings from wingmen.

 

Thanks for the help. I'm getting better, slowly.

[rogue_blade]

lol to people who play with labels

[Weta43]

LOL to people who say 'lol to people who play with labels'

 

When I started I used them & they are a legitimate place to start - esp given the difference between visual cues in LO & RL.

After a while I edited them down in the .LUA & eventualy turned them off altogether, but I'd say the question of whether no labels is more realistic than (heavily edited in the .lua) labels, or just more appealing to L33T pilots egos was never settled after many pages of arguments.

If there's a contrail to see, you're much more able to see IRL than on a monitor with the FOV zoomed out, & you still can't see as much on the monitor as you can IRL.

Monitors just can't replicate the detailed vision in the center combined with large FOV that human eyes have.