WCS cooling - Actual damage / system implementation?

[viper2097]

Please HB, can you clarify on the actual state of the cooling simulation of the WCS including the damage?

 

Situation (please correct me if something is wrong):

The WCS needs proper cooling to be allowed to turned to Stdby or On.

Cooling consist of two parts, the cooling circuit, and actual airflow for cooling.

 

The cooling circuit is the first thing, and can be turned on as soon as electric power (or hydraulic pressure? please clarify) is available. Fwd if an Phoenix A is on board, Aft if no A is on board.

IIRC Natops says that the circuit needs to run for 1 minute before further tasking?

 

The cooling air is the second thing.

It can either be achieved by turning air source to anything else then off while the engines are running, or turning ground cooling on while ground air supply is applied.

 

If the cooling circuit is running, and air flow is available, the WCS is allowed to be turned out of off.

 

So my question is:

Is there actually any kind of damage modelled, if anything of those steps is not done correct, and if, what? IIRC NATOPS says, that damage occours after 3 minutes operating without cooling.

The ground cooling is not implemented yet, will it in the future?

 

Thank you very much:thumbup:

Edited August 2, 2019 by viper2097

[QuiGon]

Please HB, can you clarify on the actual state of the cooling simulation of the WCS including the damage?

 

Situation (please correct me if something is wrong):

The WCS needs proper cooling to be allowed to turned to Stdby or On.

Cooling consist of two parts, the cooling circuit, and actual airflow for cooling.

 

The cooling circuit is the first thing, and can be turned on as soon as electric power (or hydraulic pressure? please clarify) is available. Fwd if an Phoenix A is on board, Aft if no A is on board.

IIRC Natops says that the circuit needs to run for 1 minute before further tasking?

I always thought FWD is needed for all Phoenix types. Now that makes me wonder in general: What is the disadvantage (IRL/DCS) of always putting the cooling switch in the FWD position, regardles of having AIM-54A, AIM-54C or no AIM-54 at all loaded? Vice versa, are there actual consequences simulated in DCS if you have AIM-54A loaded and put the switch to the AFT position?

 

 

The cooling air is the second thing.

It can either be achieved by turning air source to anything else then off while the engines are running, or turning ground cooling on while ground air supply is applied.

 

If the cooling circuit is running, and air flow is available, the WCS is allowed to be turned out of off.

 

So my question is:

Is there actually any kind of damage modelled, if anything of those steps is not done correct, and if, what? IIRC NATOPS says, that damage occours after 3 minutes operating without cooling.

The ground cooling is not implemented yet, will it in the future?

 

Thank you very much:thumbup:

I use the WCS quite a lot without engines running, because I mostly fly on the Blue Flag server where Tomcats spawn with empty tanks. Refueling takes quite a while in the Tomcat, hence I do most of my startup routine (including entering waypoints) while the engines are still off. I wasn't aware there is a special ground cooling switch and hence have never used it. It never caused any issues for me, the WCS always worked flawless :huh:

 

@Heatblur: It would be great indeed to get some clarification on how the cooling in the DCS Tomcat is actually modelled?

[viper2097]

I always thought FWD is needed for all Phoenix types. Now that makes me wonder in general: What is the disadvantage (IRL/DCS) of always putting the cooling switch in the FWD position, regardles of having AIM-54A, AIM-54C or no AIM-54 at all loaded? Vice versa, are there actual consequences simulated in DCS if you have AIM-54A loaded and put the switch to the AFT position?

A model of the Phoenix has a seperate cooling system. Thats why the Fwd position.

C model has no seperate cooling system and "works like" the Aim 7 or Aim 9.

Just check the NATOPS, its described there.

Thats why two positions. However, it would still be intresting what would happen if there is no A loaded and the Switch is fwd.

 

If an A model is loaded and the switch is aft, "MSL COND" caution light will light and no cooling to the Phoenix happens. No idea if it have any consequences in DCS.

 

However, clarification on also those fauilures / cosnequences qould be great.

[Karon]

That's indeed an interesting question. Personally I switch fwd no matter the AIM-54 version and didn't have any issue even after 90+ minutes flying.

[Spiceman]

I can’t comment on what is modeled, but I can describe the system...

 

For the AWG-9... the AWG-9 can be run without cooling air or the liquid cooling turned on. We could safely run it on the ground for as long as 15 minutes without cooling air or liquid cooling. You could run it in Stby or XMT, you’d simply ignore any DPs (bit failures) related to liquid cooling or waveguide pressure. If we needed to verify good coolant flow (bring up the flycatcher for the transmitter and watch the bit flip when the pump is turned on), we could switch the coolant pump on and run it safely for at least 5 minutes, without cooling air. Verifying good waveguide pressure is much more of a pain on the boat. There’s no cooling air on the flight deck aside from the huffers, and so you’d have to get one of the blue shirts driving the huffers to come help you, and they love to tell you to F*** off (airwing vs ships company thing). So we’d usually take our best shot at a fix and the aircrew would just have to test it after startup and, if it didn’t work, we’d have to take our next best shot at a fix after startup and before launch.

 

As far as the Phoenix goes, it’s basically the same thing. There is no harm in having a mix of As and Cs as the Cs simply didn’t have the QDs and therefore wouldn’t engage the QDs in the Phoenix rail. It’s no different than having some things plugged into outlets on an electrical circuit and some outlets not having anything plugged into them.

 

There is no disadvantage to putting the coolant switch to AWG-9/AIM-54 all the time. In real life it’s not the correct practice simply because you’re running the pump for no reason and increasing the chance that it will break when you actually do need it. I highly doubt that AIM-54 pump life is modeled in the sim.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Spiceman

[QuiGon]

A model of the Phoenix has a seperate cooling system. Thats why the Fwd position.

C model has no seperate cooling system and "works like" the Aim 7 or Aim 9.

Just check the NATOPS, its described there.

Thats why two positions.

Interesting. The Heatblur manual differs from the NATOPS there as it says FWD position is needed for all Phoenix types: http://www.heatblur.se/F-14Manual/general.html#an-awg-9-and-aim-54-cooling

 

 

I can’t comment on what is modeled, but I can describe the system...

 

For the AWG-9... the AWG-9 can be run without cooling air or the liquid cooling turned on. We could safely run it on the ground for as long as 15 minutes without cooling air or liquid cooling. You could run it in Stby or XMT, you’d simply ignore any DPs (bit failures) related to liquid cooling or waveguide pressure. If we needed to verify good coolant flow (bring up the flycatcher for the transmitter and watch the bit flip when the pump is turned on), we could switch the coolant pump on and run it safely for at least 5 minutes, without cooling air. Verifying good waveguide pressure is much more of a pain on the boat. There’s no cooling air on the flight deck aside from the huffers, and so you’d have to get one of the blue shirts driving the huffers to come help you, and they love to tell you to F*** off (airwing vs ships company thing). So we’d usually take our best shot at a fix and the aircrew would just have to test it after startup and, if it didn’t work, we’d have to take our next best shot at a fix after startup and before launch.

 

As far as the Phoenix goes, it’s basically the same thing. There is no harm in having a mix of As and Cs as the Cs simply didn’t have the QDs and therefore wouldn’t engage the QDs in the Phoenix rail. It’s no different than having some things plugged into outlets on an electrical circuit and some outlets not having anything plugged into them.

 

There is no disadvantage to putting the coolant switch to AWG-9/AIM-54 all the time. In real life it’s not the correct practice simply because you’re running the pump for no reason and increasing the chance that it will break when you actually do need it. I highly doubt that AIM-54 pump life is modeled in the sim.

Great insight and explanation IRL behaviour! Thanks a lot!

 

The question remains though if and how ground cooling effects are simulated in the game?

[lucky-hendrix]

I always thought FWD is needed for all Phoenix types. Now that makes me wonder in general: What is the disadvantage (IRL/DCS) of always putting the cooling switch in the FWD position, regardles of having AIM-54A, AIM-54C or no AIM-54 at all loaded? Vice versa, are there actual consequences simulated in DCS if you have AIM-54A loaded and put the switch to the AFT position?

 

 

 

I use the WCS quite a lot without engines running, because I mostly fly on the Blue Flag server where Tomcats spawn with empty tanks. Refueling takes quite a while in the Tomcat, hence I do most of my startup routine (including entering waypoints) while the engines are still off. I wasn't aware there is a special ground cooling switch and hence have never used it. It never caused any issues for me, the WCS always worked flawless :huh:

 

@Heatblur: It would be great indeed to get some clarification on how the cooling in the DCS Tomcat is actually modelled?

 

Hey just a tip for blueflag, Ask the ground crew to first turn ON electrical & Air supply, then asked them to refuel. that way you can start the engines and the whole jet while they are putting the fuel in. You will probably have finished your check list before they have finished to refuel ;)

[Naquaii]

Interesting. The Heatblur manual differs from the NATOPS there as it says FWD position is needed for all Phoenix types: http://www.heatblur.se/F-14Manual/general.html#an-awg-9-and-aim-54-cooling

 

 

 

Great insight and explanation IRL behaviour! Thanks a lot!

 

The question remains though if and how ground cooling effects are simulated in the game?

 

The intention is to eventually simulate having external cooling available when you have the external air connected.

 

In regards to the -C being described the same as the -A in the manual, the answer is simple, we didn't know!

The documentation we have describes only the -A but I'll keep it in mind for revisions.

[QuiGon]

The intention is to eventually simulate having external cooling available when you have the external air connected.

 

In regards to the -C being described the same as the -A in the manual, the answer is simple, we didn't know!

The documentation we have describes only the -A but I'll keep it in mind for revisions.

That's great to hear! Looking forward for it getting implemented! :thumbup:

 

Hey just a tip for blueflag, Ask the ground crew to first turn ON electrical & Air supply, then asked them to refuel. that way you can start the engines and the whole jet while they are putting the fuel in. You will probably have finished your check list before they have finished to refuel

Yeah, we already do this, but we don't need the engines running for this. I'm usally done with my RIO startup when taking fuel isn't even halfway finished.