Question Regarding Missiles

[ricalsa6]

I am wondering if a missile fired in Home on Jam mode requires that I maintain a lock on the target, or if a missile fired in this mode is fire and forget e.g. can I break lock after firing a missile in HOJ mode and still expect it to guide, or do I have maintain a constant lock on the target as if I was firing a SARH missile. Note that I am asking in regards to LOMAC FC 1.12a.

 

Secondly I am wondering if I can fire an R-77 from a lock attained solely with the EOS. Specifically I am wondering if I can attain a lock with the EOS, switch to the R-77, keep the radar turned off, and still expect an R-77 fired in this manner to guide properly.

[GGTharos]

I am wondering if a missile fired in Home on Jam mode requires that I maintain a lock on the target, or if a missile fired in this mode is fire and forget e.g. can I break lock after firing a missile in HOJ mode and still expect it to guide, or do I have maintain a constant lock on the target as if I was firing a SARH missile. Note that I am asking in regards to LOMAC FC 1.12a.

 

It's pretty much fire and forget, unless the bandit turns off ECM.

 

Secondly I am wondering if I can fire an R-77 from a lock attained solely with the EOS. Specifically I am wondering if I can attain a lock with the EOS, switch to the R-77, keep the radar turned off, and still expect an R-77 fired in this manner to guide properly.

 

 

No, this should not work - at the very least, such a delivery mode for the 77 has not even been hinted at - the WCS has to offload target from the radar to the missile.

[Aeroscout]

You cannot even select the R-77 if the radar is off.

[ricalsa6]

I have never tried switching to the R-77 using the eos; the reason why I thought this might be possible is because the R-77 flies using datalink/inertial guidance until it turns on its own radar. Therefore I was thinking it might be possible for it to receive its midcourse guidance updates from the eos instead of the radar.

 

Thanks for answering my questions.

[GGTharos]

Unfortunately, it is the radar that generates the datalink signal ;)

[S77th-GOYA]

It's pretty much fire and forget, unless the bandit turns off ECM.

 

It should not be fire and forget. If your radar is not painting the target anymore, the target shouldn't be emitting the jam that the missile is supposed to be homing on. At least for the type of jammers we have in game.

[ricalsa6]

Wait, let me get this straight, it is in fact fire and forget, yet it should not be as this is not accurate. Correct?

[GGTharos]

That's how it should be, but in the game its pretty much fire and forget.

[D-Scythe]

Wait, let me get this straight, it is in fact fire and forget, yet it should not be as this is not accurate. Correct?

 

No, being fire and forget is accurate. When the target is actively jamming - that is, the jammer is on and emitting - the missile will home in on this energy autonomously, without the need for the target to be locked on. However, some jammers only turn themselves on when the jet is locked on/painted by an enemy radar - therefore, the jamming signal necessary for the missile to home in on is only present when the target is being illuminated by an enemy radar.

 

Thus, so long as someone is painting/locking the target, its jammer will be emitting and your missile is fire and forget. However, this is NOT the type of jammer modelled in game, so I don't really get what Goya was saying. In the game, we can turn on or off our jammers at will. Furthermore, the APG-63 doesn't even actively paint the target when it's tracking it in HOJ mode, so how the jammer will "know" to jam is a bit sketchy. The whole ECCM/HOJ vs. ECM thing, it's really a complicated and messy affair.

[RvEYoda]

Maybe a noise jammer can be HOJed fully autonomous, but if it's something similar to phase inversion you're in trouble ;)

[Pilotasso]

You can cue R-77 Shots with EOS, but as you can guess it is limited at the range the EOS can pick the targets heat and achieve lock on, i.e. roughly at 10-25 km depending on the enemies throttle setting. This is Possible only when looking up, if you try doing it while looking down the missile will go maddog and likely to miss.

 

It is strange that few have noticed this, at least thats the impression I have with these few posts.

[GGTharos]

^^^^

Bug. Will get put on the list.

[S77th-GOYA]

However, this is NOT the type of jammer modelled in game, so I don't really get what Goya was saying. In the game, we can turn on or off our jammers at will.

 

Integral to the F-15 TEWS, ALQ-135 ICS is an internally mounted responsive jammer designed to counter surface-to-air and air-to-air threats with minimum aircrew activity.

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/budget/fy1998/dot-e/airforce/98f15.html

[GGTharos]

GOYA is saying that an SPJ is not modeled. I think.

[D-Scythe]

GOYA is saying that an SPJ is not modeled. I think.

 

*I'm* saying SPJ is not modelled. From what I gather, Goya is describing jammers in the game as they should be, not as they are. I know they should work as Goya has described, but I was merely pointing out it's not currently modelled like that.

[GGTharos]

Not questioning what you're saying D-Scythe :)

[S77th-GOYA]

It should not be fire and forget.

 

What's not clear?

[TucksonSonny]

You can cue R-77 Shots with EOS, but as you can guess it is limited at the range the EOS can pick the targets heat and achieve lock on, i.e. roughly at 10-25 km depending on the enemies throttle setting. This is Possible only when looking up, if you try doing it while looking down the missile will go maddog and likely to miss.

 

It is strange that few have noticed this, at least thats the impression I have with these few posts.

 

 

I noticed it a long time ago. But since you better use the expensive R-77 together with your radar after burn-through anyway, thus why would you take the risk and use it with EOS.

 

The best result is anyway the ET with EOS.

 

Of course if you can sneak on the bandit his six EOS can be so wonderfully :D

[SoaringEagle74]

HOJ mode is really a desperate move. The missile and/or radar only locks on the azimuth of the emmitting jammer with no regard to target altitude, speed, aspect ratio, distance, etc. You would be better off waiting for radar burn-through at a shorter distance to engage or launching a long range IR missile. Most IR missiles are all-aspect so no need to go on bandit six.

[GGTharos]

If you're talking about LOMAC, you're partly correct. ARH missiles in a HoJ launch work ok, and there are ways of ranging your target (which the radar should do ANYWAY despite the jamming - but not modeled in LO)

[D-Scythe]

What's not clear?

 

Why not? Provided the jammer is on, any radar missile in HOJ is fire-forget. The fact that some SP jammers are automated and require the target to be painted/locked up in order to actively emit doesn't mean that the missile is not fire-forget - it just means that the target has to be painted, by your radar, your wingman's radar, a SAM radar, etc.

 

Either way, the missile is functioning completely independently from the jet that launched it. Now, there is a possibility that an AMRAAM may still receive mid-course updates from an F-15 and its more powerful ECCM equipment, but I'm going to limit myself to radar missiles with HOJ but without datalinks for the moment (e.g. AIM-7M).

 

Furthermore, the original question was asking with regards to Lock On, not real life. SP jammers are not modelled in Lock On. Thus, HOJ missiles are fire-and-forget, so long as the enemy pilot leaves their jammer on.

 

At least, that's my understanding of the discussion so far. Feel free to refute/clarify.

[S77th-GOYA]

The fact that some SP jammers are automated and require the target to be painted/locked up in order to actively emit doesn't mean that the missile is not fire-forget - it just means that the target has to be painted, by your radar, your wingman's radar, a SAM radar, etc.

 

The jammer jams the frequency which is painting/locking it. If a wingman of SAM was painting it instead of the original shooter, the target would be not be emitting what the missile is trying to home on. A hand-off might be possible, but you should not be able to simply fire and go home.

 

And yes, I'm talking about what SHOULD be modeled, not what exists in LOMAC now.

 

Which reminds me, I was in the same TS channel as an enemy Su-25T recently and I heard him report being locked when I locked his jam in my F-15. I thought F-15 radars were not supposed to give a warning of lock or launch in HOJ mode.

[D-Scythe]

The jammer jams the frequency which is painting/locking it. If a wingman of SAM was painting it instead of the original shooter, the target would be not be emitting what the missile is trying to home on. A hand-off might be possible, but you should not be able to simply fire and go home.

 

Maybe you know something I don't, but from my understanding there are two types of ECCM - ECCM that is specific to certain types/techniques of jamming and "general purpose" ECCM that can be used against all types of jamming. HOJ/AOJ belongs in the latter category. Thus, I'd think the missile would be able to home in on any type of jamming, and not just those tuned to a specific frequency. In fact, by bouncing the jamming signal off the ground a target can often fool missiles in HOJ, since the missile cannot tell which signal is the real source of the jamming.

 

Which reminds me, I was in the same TS channel as an enemy Su-25T recently and I heard him report being locked when I locked his jam in my F-15. I thought F-15 radars were not supposed to give a warning of lock or launch in HOJ mode.

 

That would be correct.

[Frostie]

Which reminds me, I was in the same TS channel as an enemy Su-25T recently and I heard him report being locked when I locked his jam in my F-15. I thought F-15 radars were not supposed to give a warning of lock or launch in HOJ mode.

HOJ shot is so successful because of this , maybe he switched his jammers off and your radar hadn't updated at the time, or it could have been a closer bandit/friend locking him.:dunno:

[EvilBivol-1]

Wow, I'm actually relieved to be see another avionics discussion for once. Thank you. :D