IR Missile Defense

[bonesvf103]

So I’m practicing IR missile defense per Grim Reapers’.youtube video. I get the concept and the maneuvers, but the Tomcat doesn’t exactly turn on a dime unless the wings are swept back and you have a lot of energy. With wings forward, she rolls slow the. Runs out of energy so that if you are say split s’ing to finish the defense against a rear quarter show, she has no energy to complete the maneuver. Especially since you are in idle.

 

So how do you get her to roll faster and still have energy to finish the maneuver? Pure bacjstock and all rudder? Seems like if I roll her too fast, she doesn’t want to respond anymore, or she roll reverses.

 

Thanks!

 

v6,

boNes

[r4y30n]

At high AoA you'll get roll reversal if you try to roll with just the stick. You can either add more rudder and less stick or you can lower AoA. In one interview Okie mentioned doing zero-g reversals, which I suppose is a variation of flying the cross. I don't have enough practice to tell if I'm actually hitting zero but it does seem to improve roll rate when you unload first.

[*Aquila*]

There's also one essential thing to consider: the more you're at low speed and high AoA, the more evading any kind of missile is difficult and sometimes impossible, except throwing lots of flares in the air and praying the missile falls in love with one of them. The video you refer to was done assuming 400 - 450 KIAS, they call "typical ACM." With all due respect to the author, there are lots of situations in PvP as well as in PvE when a Fox-2 is shot while both protagonist fly way slower than that. Dogfights often end up low and slow. And the end is typically when one of the protagonists catches a Fox-2 solid lock while both pilots are struggling to keep their planes in flight at high AoA.

Edited March 14, 2020 by *Aquila*

[bonesvf103]

Ah, that could be it...running on low speed. When I'm practicing I'm purposely letting them sling missiles at me so it's maenuver after maneuver after maneuver.

 

 

 

Although sometimes when I am doing the split S, I cannot complete the split s. I'm headed straight for the ground and am barely able to pull up m ost of the time. Hmm...

 

 

v6,

boNes

[captain_dalan]

1. So I’m practicing IR missile defense per Grim Reapers’.youtube video.

 

2...but the Tomcat doesn’t exactly turn on a dime unless the wings are swept back and you have a lot of energy. With wings forward, she rolls slow the. Runs out of energy......

 

3.....so that if you are say split s’ing to finish the defense against a rear quarter show, she has no energy to complete the maneuver. Especially since you are in idle.

 

4. So how do you get her to roll faster and still have energy to finish the maneuver? Pure bacjstock and all rudder? Seems like if I roll her too fast, she doesn’t want to respond anymore, or she roll reverses.

 

 

5.Ah, that could be it...running on low speed. When I'm practicing I'm purposely letting them sling missiles at me so it's maenuver after maneuver after maneuver.

 

1. First thing first, while they are very fun and amiable chaps (and i try to follow their escapades at least once a week), they aren't always the best source of information, especially on the subject of dogfighting. For a more in depth approach, backed with commentaries and after action reports made in Tacview i would point you to Growling Sidewinder's channel. He has tons of BFM videos on ACM in any of the DCS jets, both guns and all aspect heat seeker missiles. Many of those are specifically made with and for the F-14.

 

2. Actually, with the wings forward, the F-14 is one of the best turning machines we currently have in DCS and is by far the plane that bleeds THE LEAST energy per g pulled at mach-knot number-value. This can actually be an issue when you are fighting say Mirage 2000's or F-18's, which both bleed energy mast easier and faster, and can therefor make a less experienced and not too careful F-14 pilot either overshoot or find him self with a bandit inside his turn circle. What the F-14 does however, is allow you pull far more g (at the expense of drag) for a very short time, thus leaving you without any energy. The key is never to pull all the way on the stick, but rather only as much as you would need to pull the desired g-turn rate. You can actually experiment by loading the 3 AC (F-14, F-18 and Mirage 2000), accelerate to 350 KIAS and then pull 6-7g in idle. Then see how fast each of those planes runs out of air speed.

 

3. For each and every plane there is a given set of parameters that allow for a split-s maneuver to be performed. You can look for these parameters in the chapter minimum latitude split-s in the flight manual for the said aircraft.

 

4. This is a more difficult question. As others have mentioned, she does exhibit roll reversal at higher angles of attack. So you can either try to unload before you roll, or you can incorporate some rudder input into your rolls. Either way, she won't be the fastest rolling machine in the air.

 

5. Finally, missile evasion.

I think we can discuss two broad categories here.

 

1. Missile fired from outside your turn circle. If there are tow things i found matters the most here, those would be pre-emtptive flaring and high energy states.

 

a. Every time it appears like a bandit is about to launch on you, drop some flares. And then drop some more just to be sure. And then keep dropping until the bandit is no longer within firing parameters. How do you know the bandit is in firing parameters? First, you ID the bandit. Very easy in the F-14, you have that beautiful TCS built into your nose. Use it. If it's a plane with HOBS capability and-or HMS-Q system (MiG-29, Su-27,33, F-16, F-18) then it can most likely fire at you at nearly 90 degrees angle off bore. Not all of those shots will be lethal, but flares are expendable, your life isn't.

 

b. the second part is preventing the missile from pulling enough lead to complete the intercept. For this you have to maximize the angle displacement the missile has to cover. So what you need to do is rapidly change your direction of heading (preferably perpendicular to the missile's heading) and move as fast as possible from where you currently are. This is why the energy state is so important. And where most new pilots make their first mistake. Trying to turn as tight as possible, often bleeding their energy in the process. The tighter your turn, the less angular-change (delta or displacement) the missile needs to combat to complete a lead turn and intercept you. The slower you are, the less lead the missile needs to pull to do the same. So a slow plane is a dead plane! Hence the adage Speed is life. Well, not really.....but it applies here. :thumbup:

 

2. This missile is fired from inside your turn circle, either a bandit that is on your circle (i.e. on your six) or has turned inside you. Flare and prey. In some cases where a sharp turn could maximize the angle displacement, perform such a sharp break. But most of all drop flares like mad. Even before the bandit launches. What you want the most however, is (because you as an F-14 pilot don't have a HOBS missile and a HMS-Q and are at a disadvantage in such situations as mentioned above) to "hug" the bandit. Turn very close into the hostile and try to stay too close for optimal missile firing parameters. And flare when you suspect he might have firing solution on you. Did i mention you should flare? No? Well i mention it now.

 

<END of long rant>

 

P.S. about a month ago i had 7 successive encounters with an Su-27 on the just dogfights server. I won 6 of them, even after spending all of my missiles on 2 of the encounters. The rest were all gun kills. It would have been 7 successive kills, if i hadn't got greedy and got myself shot down by a SAM as the Flanker was bugging out for Batumi and i was trying to line up for a 4th gun shot. And the Flanker has both a superior missile (R-73) and an HMS. So trust me, all the above is doable. And if it's doable against human pilots, it's doable against AI's.

 

Clear skies and keep flying! :pilotfly::thumbup:

Edited March 16, 2020 by captain_dalan

[Sideburns]

I would also recommend being careful with a number of YouTube sources for guidance on this matter, but particularly the Grim Reapers who are fairly ineffective at air combat despite their YouTube following.

 

I have found staying fast (~400 knots, always >300 knots), dropping throttle while flaring (1-2s), pulling max rate performance turn changing direction and spamming 3-4 flares to be effective. You will need to initiate a response on the expected threat, an R60 or Aim9p will be lost fairly easily. Missiles like the R73 and Aim9x will take some serious G and luck to lose though.

 

With smoothness on the stick the F14 will retain energy fairly well, like most fighters try to stay around 14-17 units aoa and, for the F14, 330knots for best sustained (without gaming the flaps). Coincidentally ~300-350 knots is usually about the 6 o'clock position on the speed gauge. Given the HUD doesn't display speed practice keeping an eye on the position of this gauge, and the aoa gauge, and try not to read the value. The wings can also give you, and your enemy, a speed indication. If the wings are not forward you are not at best sustain speed, but your roll rate will be better.

[bonesvf103]

Lots of great tips guys, thanks. Especially the Grim Reapers one...I won't sluff them off but I will take what they are saying with a grain of salt.

 

 

Seems to me that the primary issue is being too low on speed to do the maneuver. I also found that although I know about the Tomcat and AOA and using the rudders, and not pulling back so hard on the stick, my problem is that to me it's a perishable skill. If I'm away flying a Hornet or something, then come back to the Tomcat, it's hard to remember to not pull so much on the stick and to smooth things out.

 

 

In light of that--when you are in the pull back stage of the split-S, does it seem like she just wants to crawl back up to straight and level? I can't pull too much harder to get her up there sooner as backpressure does nothing at that point. Is it like that with anyone else or with other aircraft (maybe, I can't remember).

 

 

Also, so let's say you've dodged some missiles and now you are out of energy...what would you do next?

 

 

v6,

boNes

[TLTeo]

Also, so let's say you've dodged some missiles and now you are out of energy...what would you do next?

 

As usual it depends but:

 

 

 

If you're not defensive and have some room, unload if possible (as in, push the stick to hold zero-ish G), light the burners and accelerate to gain some energy.

 

 

If you're still defensive and/or there are more bad things flying your way: tell Megan you love her and prepare to eject.

[bonesvf103]

As usual it depends but:

 

 

 

If you're not defensive and have some room, unload if possible (as in, push the stick to hold zero-ish G), light the burners and accelerate to gain some energy.

 

 

If you're still defensive and/or there are more bad things flying your way: tell Megan you love her and prepare to eject.

 

 

Lighting the burners would make me an easier target for IR missiles though...when should that be done?

 

 

v6,

boNes

[TLTeo]

Which is why I said, if you're not defensive and you have some room (say, the bandit overshot or something).

[r4y30n]

In light of that--when you are in the pull back stage of the split-S, does it seem like she just wants to crawl back up to straight and level? I can't pull too much harder to get her up there sooner as backpressure does nothing at that point. Is it like that with anyone else or with other aircraft (maybe, I can't remember).

 

How's your trim? If you're bottomed out on energy and haven't trimmed since the merge it's probably gonna be pretty nose high.

[Sideburns]

Lighting the burners would make me an easier target for IR missiles though...when should that be done?

 

 

v6,

boNes

 

You've got to keep eyes on the bandit, recognise when he has a good shot (i.e. pulling lead pursuit on your 6) and when they don't. When they don't have a good IR shot use throttle, if it looks like they have a good IR shot be ready to drop throttle. If they take the IR shot drop throttle, flare and ideally also change direction if you have the energy.