Question: I cant seem to pull enough rate of turn in the F16

[Sharpe_95]

Hi guys,

I know this is a question influenced by loads of variables which i have not adequately (or in any way) accounted for - but am I missing something?

 

The F16 is supposed to be 'the' turning fighter of its era if the stuff you read on the internet is anything to go by, but I cant help but feel that:

a) Its current pilot is a bit 'wimpy' when it comes to G-tolerance?

b) It seems to be outperformed by other aircraft that (from everything I have seen and heard) it should be out performing?

c) F16 seems to suffer from drag more than its peers?

d) The F16 seems to be drinking fuel rather fast?

e) The F16 seems to be effected (Effected/Affected?????) by drag more than its peers (assume this is to do with a less powerful single engine or something?

 

To be a little more specific:

a) The pilot in the F16 seems to black out very quickly for an aircraft known as a '9g fighter'? If you watch this video of a pilot in a centrifuge, he holds a 9g pull for 5-7(ish) seconds without oxygen (or the F16s canted seat that was supposed to further improve g-tolerance):

https://www.theguardian.com/science/video/2015/oct/01/high-g-force-training-centrifuge-squeeze-leg-butt-youtube-video

Why does my pixilated pilot black out after a mere couple of seconds at about 8.5g?

 

b) Having had a quick fly in each of the practice free flight missions in the Hornet and the Tomcat, the Tomcat seems to outperform the F16 in terms of maximum turn rate (looking at the ACMI by about 3deg per second or more) and the FA18 seems to outperform the F16 in terms of sustained turn rate, maximum turn rate and ability to maintain its speed round a turn no matter how much you pull the stick (not a performance turn of course, but interesting as it is can still 'accelerate round the corner' at 7g if entering at the correct speed (about 400knts+)). I would add that in the very limited and unscientific tests I did the F16 was both lighter and cleaner (by configuration) than both the Hornet and the Tomcat in the same situation.

 

c) I have been noticing that the F16 seems to burn fuel at a higher rate than the hornet and the Tomcat when loaded with stores etc. Now I have no data to go on so we are in the realm of 'gut feel and speculation' here, but I cant help but think the smaller/lighter F16 seems to be thirstier than its twin engine cousin's- is this by design or just an 'early access thing'? Also the drag imparted on the aircraft seems to be 'worse' than the Tomcat and particularly the Hornet?

 

So I guess my question is this:

Is the F16 flight model (inc. pilot g-tolerance/drag/fuel burn rates) an item that is still being developed as part of the early access, or is the F16 actually just a bit naff when compared to aircraft like the Hornet and the Tomcat and all the stuff on the internet about the F16s 'vaunted' turning performance just a load of rubbish? Also am I the only one noticing his (probably am :doh:)?

 

-S

Edited May 11, 2020 by Sharpe_95

[Ala12Rv-watermanpc]

I think that the viper has probably the best FM in DCS, I would say that other planes are performing too good, just imho.

[Sharpe_95]

I think that the viper has probably the best FM in DCS, I would say that other planes are performing too good, just imho.

 

Ok so perhaps not a fair comparison then? - thanks :thumbup:

 

-S

[Motomouse]

F-16 is about sustained turn rate.

 

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10416

Edited May 11, 2020 by Motomouse

[Ala12Rv-watermanpc]

A different thing is g tolerance, which I also think should be better, among other things due to the seat design. About pure performance, Im not an expert by any means, but I can sustain turns with the hornet at sea level without even using AB that doesnt seem to be accurate according to real life stuff, knowing that the viper has plenty of data material I would assume that the viper actually is the one being accurate. Just with the naked eye, it behaves extremely close to videos and stuff. Of course it will never be perfect but I really feel like the F16 has the best FM in a moder fighter jet to date in dcs.

[Top Jockey]

 

...

 

So I guess my question is this:

Is the F16 flight model (inc. pilot g-tolerance/drag/fuel burn rates) an item that is still being developed as part of the early access, or is the F16 actually just a bit naff when compared to aircraft like the Hornet and the Tomcat and all the stuff on the internet about the F16s 'vaunted' turning performance just a load of rubbish? Also am I the only one noticing his (probably am :doh:)?

-S

 

No you're not the only one noticing that, essentially it's what @watermanpc said at post #2.

Several threads about that, this one right below your thread:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=258416

[rinkerbuck]

It's fantastic as a rate fighter even with the current G limitations with the pilot, and it's no slouch when it comes to lower speed turns as well. Fantastic T/W ratio also. That said it won't magically save you if you just suck at BFM and/or speed management. Also yeah it's gonna be a lot slower and less nimble carrying a full load than just a couple of missiles or clean. The F14 will likely beat it in a low speed turning fight, so don't get into one with it.

[breakneckPace]

I'm actually interested in the responses to this as well. I've been doing a few head to head dogfights with my friend. Me in the f-16, him in the f-18/f-14. I'll start by saying i know there's a good deal attributed to talent in all this, but I don't think our skills are THAT far apart. (I could be wrong on this.:smilewink: ) but I'm finding that more often than not he's out turning me, weather I try a high G pull, or pull less but try keeping my speed in the optimal range, I tend to lose out in the end. On the first pass I can get around about the same rate he can, but any subsequent turns after that it just seems like I'm losing out. Again, there's a good chance he's just better than me, and I need to work on my BFM skills, but I'd like to think I'm not THAT horrible at flying.

 

I'm sure the answers is, "You just need to get better at your flying skills." Or something along those lines. but I'd be happy to have another excuse for a little while. hahaha.

[Top Jockey]

I'm actually interested in the responses to this as well. I've been doing a few head to head dogfights with my friend. Me in the f-16, him in the f-18/f-14. I'll start by saying i know there's a good deal attributed to talent in all this, but I don't think our skills are THAT far apart. (I could be wrong on this.:smilewink: ) but I'm finding that more often than not he's out turning me, weather I try a high G pull, or pull less but try keeping my speed in the optimal range, I tend to lose out in the end. On the first pass I can get around about the same rate he can, but any subsequent turns after that it just seems like I'm losing out. Again, there's a good chance he's just better than me, and I need to work on my BFM skills, but I'd like to think I'm not THAT horrible at flying.

 

I'm sure the answers is, "You just need to get better at your flying skills." Or something along those lines. but I'd be happy to have another excuse for a little while. hahaha.

 

Are you and your friend flying with the amount of fuel for roughly the same time of flight / afterburner in your different airframes ?

Let's say 4 to 5 minutes in full afterburner.

 

(Which obvioulsy means different fuel quantities for either the F-16 and the Tomcat.)

 

Post #81

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=258416&page=9

 

 

If you maintain at the least 400 kts at sea level, can he still get higher sustained turn rate than you in his Tomcat ?

[schurem]

BFM isn't just about circles. There's a ton of geometry in there. Read up some theory on it, or watch some youtube. I like the video's done under the name of DCS debrief. He's good.

[Contact409]

The actual rate in the game was spot on, the problem is with current G-loc model, we cannot maintain that rate.

 

also, the G on set rate is not correct, way too slow for G on set. I think this has already reported but ED still investigating ?

 

as for tomcat, you can`t out turn it(sustain) with current fuel load, (50% F14, 50% F16)

 

and tomcat performance sometime falls outside the known data depend upon the pilot, so it became a guessing game at some point.

[Hummingbird]

The DCS F-16's sustained rate/load factor is close to real life figures, however instantanous rate/load factor is too low, as is the time needed to reach it (G onset rate).

 

When these things are fixed the F-16 will be a lot more impressive in dogfights.

[Contact409]

The DCS F-16's sustained rate/load factor is close to real life figures, however instantanous rate/load factor is too low, as is the time needed to reach it (G onset rate).

 

When these things are fixed the F-16 will be a lot more impressive in dogfights.

 

+1:thumbup:

[Top Jockey]

The DCS F-16's sustained rate/load factor is close to real life figures, however instantanous rate/load factor is too low, as is the time needed to reach it (G onset rate).

 

When these things are fixed the F-16 will be a lot more impressive in dogfights.

 

I don't know the slightest bit of programing... but given the knowledge and experience ED does have in flight models already, I believe correcting that shouldn't be too big a task for them...

[markturner1960]

BFM isn't just about circles. There's a ton of geometry in there. Read up some theory on it, or watch some youtube. I like the video's done under the name of DCS debrief. He's good.

 

Wow, great link, thanks Dude!