SD-10 nerfed too much

[Tiger-II]

So corrected behavior brings:

- increased drag in high speed range (but still supposedly better then it should be)

- brick wall bump at speeds which you'd expect in endgame (which wasn't really noticed before as missile came too fast to endgame)

- reduced battery life limiting time of flight

 

 

SD-10 did have 100 second life-time, same as LD-10. If you fire it maddog it will have reduced range because the seeker is active off the rail and draining the battery, but if you support the missile to impact, the seeker is passive, and so the power consumption is lower/run-time is higher.

 

 

 

Previously unnoticed features (are these modeled in other ARH missiles?):

- chaff resistance, lookdown issues, notch, seeker FOV?

Chaff resistance yes, seeker FoV yes; the rest are new I think (!).

 

 

Personaly, of maybe 30 shots since the patch, I got 2 hits (I play MP exclusively).

This is what drew my attention to it. I set up an AA test flight a few months back and found most missiles were misses when they looked like nearly certain hits. The miss rate was certainly far below expected PK.

 

 

Would be cool to see side by side comparison of fox3s and reasoning behind the data (since many parameters are educated guesses or estimations due to highly classified actual data).

Check my tracks - it seems that all RADAR missiles are equally affected; not just SD-10.

 

 

Look also at the speed of the missile when it misses/goes dumb/fails - they still have plenty of energy but for some reason just give up tracking the target. This seems to happen below Mach 2.0.

 

In the meantime, forget about JF-17 in AA role, buy an F-16 instead. Oh wait...where's my tin foil hat :smartass:

:music_whistling: Edited May 26, 2020 by Tiger-II

[Tiger-II]

Regarding Cx0 - these calcs are not magic. No matter how simplified or complex they are, the upper bound of drag can be limited.

 

As we see in the charts, the "real" CFD model shows it peaks at 0.03 whereas the sim spikes to 0.08. This can be fixed with a bounds check, whereby if the Cx0 is calculated > than the CFD max, then limit it.

 

That is the most simple way to limit it. There are more complex (but not much harder) ways to model the curve mathematically that result in far more accurate matching of values, but this isn't done in DCS it would seem.

 

Why they are happy for the curve to vary wildly is another unknown.

 

A simple

 

if(Cx0 > 0.04) Cx0 = 0.04;

 

 

would even fix it!

[Tiger-II]

-------------

Several other points need to mention:

1. One SD-10 is notched but not heading for chaff, just like bump away from target.This is a side effect introduced very long time ago(back to DCSW 1.5),to protect helos from ARH missile.If the target is beaming and it's speed is below certain value(usually M0.7 below, better at M0.5 below), the ARH will drop the lock and turn away automatically. And this does not need look down and chaff support.

Well... what the hell???? Why do helicopters need protection from RADAR missiles anyway? So beam, chaff, and get very slow - trash all the missiles?

 

 

2.For AIM-7

It's chaff resistance is really low at the moment and the speed is also too too low, AIM-7 is completely useless outside 5NM.

And your teammate may not firing the AIM-7 at STT for several shots, I see some shots are not guided at all and AI didn't even drop the chaff.

Some other AIM-7 are missed because the target entered notch, APG73 can not provide illumination when target is lost.

My teammate is new to combat flying, so don't judge his technique too much. It was my missile shots that were of interest.

[Jester2138]

1. One SD-10 is notched but not heading for chaff, just like bump away from target.This is a side effect introduced very long time ago(back to DCSW 1.5),to protect helos from ARH missile.If the target is beaming and it's speed is below certain value(usually M0.7 below, better at M0.5 below), the ARH will drop the lock and turn away automatically. And this does not need look down and chaff support.

 

Um, what? Why? I can't think of any reason why DCS should behave that way. It's very unrealistic.

[Chiron]

Um, what? Why? I can't think of any reason why DCS should behave that way. It's very unrealistic.

 

welcome to DCS World

[Harlikwin]

Ive skimmed through the thread and I see alot of references to the DLZ, NEZ and long range shots.

 

1st) The DLZ is totally worthless in DCS. Learn by trial and error the lethal ranges for different missiles in DCS. When I look through the Hud I no longer see the DLZ, its filtered out by my brain as clutter.

 

2nd) In DCS the NEZ/RTR (the trIal and error one not the DLZ) etc are not even close to a guarantee of a kill. It is merely the range the bandit must immeadiately respond to your launch at, nothing more. Notching, CMs, line of sight, netcode, and blind luck cause missiles to miss. When they are notched they have this silly habit of pulling away from the bandit. It looks stupid, but it doesnt really matter,that missile is wasted.

 

3rd) it is very easy to drive missiles into the ground by pitching down. This works even at 4nm. The missile makes an exaggerated lead pursuit manuever when its already low driving it into the ground. Frustrating, but possibly not that unrealistic since as far as i know A2A missiles dont have radar altimeters or terrain avoidance. Of course most A2A engagements dont happen at 50ft in real life.

 

4th) Some of the ranges discussed in this thread are hopelessly optimistic against experienced PVP pilots. 120 and SD10 20nm kills just dont happen unless someone falls asleep or does something stupid. Most kills are when the missile motor is still burning. On the deck that would be 5-10nm. In a well fought squad match you can expend almost all your missiles at that range and perhaps achieve one kill. That would be considered a good result. In a busy MP server it is potentially easier because of the general disorganisation and varied level of pilot skill.

 

In essence, ignore the DLZ, and recalibrate your expectations.

 

Yup, what he said, pretty much about any missile really.

[Harlikwin]

Um, what? Why? I can't think of any reason why DCS should behave that way. It's very unrealistic.

 

welcome to DCS World

 

Yup. DCS does some wonky stuff at times. But this is basically how the "notch" mechanic works. How relevant that is to reality, well.... Or did you buy the marketing about DCS being the "most realistic thing EVAR?", DCS does somethings "well" some other things "ok", and large parts of it are "terrible".

[Chiron]

Yup. DCS does some wonky stuff at times. But this is basically how the "notch" mechanic works. How relevant that is to reality, well.... Or did you buy the marketing about DCS being the "most realistic thing EVAR?", DCS does somethings "well" some other things "ok", and large parts of it are "terrible".

 

look about the notch mechanism for helicopter i think its reality as i am egyptian i saw some military reports that shared in public about how F-4 phantom missiles failed to intercept helicopters and missiles seems to be ineffective against slow targets and low alt flying so i think its right my friend but what i know from a technology exist in 1973 i dont know about modern missiles what they can react against slow and low alt targets but that thing happened in real life ....... the most annoying stuff in DCS in my opinion is netcode stuff cuz DCS far behind of being stable in connection stuff and desync and lag and some teleportation notching is happen a lot in public server

 

But TBH ED didn't module Notch correctly cuz i saw AI doing this in high alt and that is somehow nonsense

Edited May 27, 2020 by Chiron

[Harlikwin]

look about the notch mechanism for helicopter i think its reality as i am egyptian i saw some military reports that shared in public about how F-4 phantom missiles failed to intercept helicopters and missiles seems to be ineffective against slow targets and low alt flying so i think its right my friend but what i know from a technology exist in 1973 i dont know about modern missiles what they can react against slow and low alt targets but that thing happened in real life ....... the most annoying stuff in DCS in my opinion is netcode stuff cuz DCS far behind of being stable in connection stuff and desync and lag and some teleportation notching is happen a lot in public server

 

But TBH ED didn't module Notch correctly cuz i saw AI doing this in high alt and that is somehow nonsense

 

Yeah, I'm sure low altitude performance of sparrows and probably even sidewinders of that era isn't really surprising. But that's a combination of low/slow targets and crappy guidance of that era more than a general mechanic. And yes doppler notching is a real thing, but how applicable it is some scenarios and on modern aircraft is questionable.

[Krippz]

;4349512']I think the SD-10 has been nerfed too much. it keeps hiting the ground and it doesn't track. It is extremely easy to notch.. Why Deka please buff it again.

 

 

 

I think its ruining the fun for the JF-17 pilots

 

The objective of a simulator should be realism, not artificial nerfs and buffs.

[AnarchyZG]

The objective of a simulator should be realism, not artificial nerfs and buffs.

 

 

Depends. When accurate simulation is not feasible - go for balance. Eg. ECM is done that way in DCS because there is no way in hell ED could simulate how a particular jammer would affect a particular radar system due to highly classified nature of those systems

[BrokenArrow]

There you go again, I want my SD-10 to work for 1000km

[Chiron]

There you go again, I want my SD-10 to work for 1000km

 

?????

[Krippz]

Depends. When accurate simulation is not feasible - go for balance. Eg. ECM is done that way in DCS because there is no way in hell ED could simulate how a particular jammer would affect a particular radar system due to highly classified nature of those systems

 

I'm pretty sure much of this thread has been focused on kinematics. ED presented their CFD findings, those are in line with another CFD that was done by a member of the community. There isn't much to discuss.

[Chiron]

I'm pretty sure much of this thread has been focused on kinematics. ED presented their CFD findings, those are in line with another CFD that was done by a member of the community. There isn't much to discuss.

 

what Kinematics u mean ?

[AnarchyZG]

I'm pretty sure much of this thread has been focused on kinematics. ED presented their CFD findings, those are in line with another CFD that was done by a member of the community. There isn't much to discuss.

 

What is presented is that SD-10 is now somewhat less draggy then CFD says it should be at M2.0 or more

and

hugely MORE draggy between M1.0 and M2.0 (which is where you'd expect the speed to be in endgame at mid to long range)

That's why I share the opinion it got nerfed

[Krippz]

What is presented is that SD-10 is now somewhat less draggy then CFD says it should be at M2.0 or more

and

hugely MORE draggy between M1.0 and M2.0 (which is where you'd expect the speed to be in endgame at mid to long range)

That's why I share the opinion it got nerfed

 

It was more draggy at mach 1 and 1.2 and less draggy in every other mach. Every missile in the game doesn't turn well at mach 1 so I really don't get your point.

[Jester2138]

I'm pretty sure much of this thread has been focused on kinematics. ED presented their CFD findings, those are in line with another CFD that was done by a member of the community. There isn't much to discuss.

 

What about the fact that according to their own posted charts (which you so astutely reference) the in-game missile isn't close to their own CFDs?

[AeriaGloria]

Is there any missile that’s extremely close to its CFD? I think there’s only four different Cx0 values you can define. I think if the missile API wasn’t limiting it in this way we would have had missiles that matched CFD a long time ago.

 

If you look at nighthawks CFD very few are very close, the only ones that are seem to be the newer ones that have been reworked, and even then there’s differences.

 

At this point both Deka and Chizh have tried what they can do to make it accurate with the current API, I don’t think that’s nerfing, just sometimes it’s really hard to make things accurate and the missile API has very low fidelity so now that they are doing all these CFD re works it really shows how limiting the current configuration is. I think that’s all that this is

[Chiron]

that is why i asked him should we believe in your CFD program and he just said u dont have to believe in anything i was wondering about one thing and this question is really bothering me is ED CFD prepared to Test Double Motor stage missiles ??? cuz i dont think so and anyone say anything about their precious CFD is accurate then sorry i totally disagree and u should all specially ED thx Deka cuz they forced ED to take a look about Aim-120 family that has been ruined for years and speed up Aim family fixing even Razbam after they ask ED for help about Mirage missiles they simply Forced to create their own missiles after what they saw from ED's missiles ........where is ED when Heatblure ask for help now they pop up and wanna fix all missiles in DCS ???? and now Meteor is coming is really ED prepared for this ? ....... dont mention their wonderful Guidance system and more over DCS Core and Netcode and F-16 and F-18 . Notch system . low speed targets filter ..... etc i can't keep up

 

do u know the issue here ????????????

 

there is no other Game in simulation world like DCS and that remaind me of Mobile corporation called Nokia ( That is the feature of DCS if ED keep continue like this ) Self-confident is a 2 edge sword

 

i really really like DCS and also ED they build some shiny modules and bring it to the light and i really admire them i have F-18 and F-16 in case if someone think i am not supporting ED and 100% support DEKA but my opinion here is ..... Specialty is good and ( Team Work is Treasure ) one man army will never work in a big simulation Game like DCS

 

another thing we are not talking only cuz SD-10 got nerfed or such a thing... SD-10 capable of killing targets from 30nm if u know how to fire it even after nerfe BTW i already test it and it work like hell to the enemy specially like F-14 long shoots that is not the point we are talking about the way of doing things that is not how it should be

 

ED already had a lot of responsibility's towards so many subjects and TBH they are very slow in fixing stuff we would love to see some focus here in more important stuff like DCS Core itself before i would say GS server had a lot of issues but seems to be after last patch many servers suffering i see players literally teleport across the map we are seeking for reality ( Big yes ) if this current SD-10 is the reality ?

 

( i will vote for it cuz i dont have information to say otherwise )

 

there is so many important stuff on the line here need to be looking for

 

that is all what i can say

Edited May 28, 2020 by Chiron

[AnarchyZG]

It was more draggy at mach 1 and 1.2 and less draggy in every other mach. Every missile in the game doesn't turn well at mach 1 so I really don't get your point.

 

You're posting the wrong chart. New one is much closer to ED CFD at high speed but has more pronounced drag spike between M1.0 and 2.0

[Harlikwin]

The objective of a simulator should be realism, not artificial nerfs and buffs.

 

I mean you're not wrong, but missiles aren't all that well "simulated" to begin with.

[Blinky.ben]

In the latest update the Aim-120 has yet got another update most likely another buff. But does anyone know if the SD-10 got its battery life back?

[Chiron]

In the latest update the Aim-120 has yet got another update most likely another buff. But does anyone know if the SD-10 got its battery life back?

 

why are u caring about batterylife only and forget about Guidance ??????

 

SD-10 get fooled so easily so so so easily its a matter of who will go hot again and shoot ...... SD-10 is not that danger to put your enemy in defense that time i shot SD-10 in 10nm and 90% it will defeated easily so i am asking DEKA to work on SD-10 a bit cuz its not good at all to a fighter with 1 BVR missile with 4 X SD-10 and 2 PL-5 that is not right to have a missile like this i can kill people yes but its frustrated i see really SD-10 get notched very fast and lose energy as hell i would love to hear from DEKA if this the SD-10 that they gathered info about it and work hard to build ( are you satisfied about SD-10 performance )

Edited June 3, 2020 by Chiron

[Blinky.ben]

why are u caring about batterylife only and forget about Guidance ??????

 

SD-10 get fooled so easily so so so easily its a matter of who will go hot again and shoot ...... SD-10 is not that danger to put your enemy in defense that time i shot SD-10 in 10nm and 90% it will defeated easily so i am asking DEKA to work on SD-10 a bit cuz its not good at all to a fighter with 1 BVR missile with 4 X SD-10 and 2 PL-5 that is not right to have a missile like this i can kill people yes but its frustrated i see really SD-10 get notched very fast and lose energy as hell i would love to hear from DEKA if this the SD-10 that they gathered info about it and work hard to build ( are you satisfied about SD-10 performance )

 

This post talks about the seeker.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=275687

 

Basically only ED can fix the seeker but let’s face it. Unless it’s about making the Aim-120 superior or nerfing the SD ED doesn’t want to know about it.