Adding Gusting wind to DCS

[VMFA117_Poko]

The problem I have with gusting wind is it is a seat of you pants and hands’ feeling that just does not transfer threw the screen. Unless you have a motion pit or a force feedback joystick one can not really get the grasp of what is happening to the aircraft. Other than what the gauges and screen tell you. Now if you just want a cross wind on landing that is one thing but to have dynamic weather during a entire flight is another. Unless the person playing the sim has a way to feel what is happing to him, it is a lost add on and could hurt sails of the game.

 

The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few. "Spock" :v:

 

My two cents:harhar:

What about simulating G-forces by showing gentle head moves in oposite direction than wind gusting. Effect would be similar to seen in racing sims when cars crash or ride on bumps. I have no problem to judge from which side other car hit me or notice the thermac is bumpy. What's the big deal CAT?

[CAT_101st]

What about simulating G-forces by showing gentle head moves in oposite direction than wind gusting. Effect would be similar to seen in racing sims when cars crash or ride on bumps. I have no problem to judge from which side other car hit me or notice the thermac is bumpy. What's the big deal CAT?

 

Yes head movement will help. I have flown a plain in windy conditions and am yeat to play a sim that givs me that same fealing. A since of what is going on to the aircraft. Soft winds is not what I am protesting. It is the gusty winds that you need seet of the pants feal to fly in that I am protesting. in a sim you can drop 10 feet and never know it. In a real aircraft you feal every inch of movement. The only way that I culd agree with the gusty /stormy weather winds is if you had a full simulator that would transfer motion to the player. Other ways you waisting progrming time that culd be used on other things that culd be moddled that the avrige simer culd be using. New aircraft, ground objects, weapons, missions, campains exc... exc...

A good example of proper programing. In jane's F18 they moddled bad weather. But it did not afect the plain very much. They moddled the ship to rock, role and pitch. witch gave a better visual fealing of bad weather. Rember if you have no refrance point to see you don't know what is happining to the air craft. Unless your eyes are glued to the ADI and other gauges.

 

Like I said just my two cents. :D

[leafer]

finally, someone asked for something useful. heh im all for adding anything that adds to immersion.

[Surf]

In addition to gusty cross-winds at low alts, updrafts and downdrafts associated with

static objects, i.e., bridges, buildings, trees, mountain/hills, etc., could really increase

the sense of immersion in a rotary wing aircraft.

 

It could be cool to see at masked helo using MM radar be suddenly updrafted/unmasked.

 

Surprise!

 

-Surfer

[Boneski]

It seems sorta pointless to add this to the weather.

 

Will the guest ever exceed the aircrafts operational limits?

If not then the normal Lock On wind model is just fine.

[Weta43]

It's not a question of exceeding the aircraft's operational limits - if it did that you wouldn't take off ...

It's about adding something else for the pilot to deal with that real pilots must cope with while flying (specifically landing, takeing off & hovering near buildings/the ground.

LO's wind fails to do this.

[Bucic]

It seems sorta pointless to add this to the weather.

 

Will the guest ever exceed the aircrafts operational limits?

If not then the normal Lock On wind model is just fine.

 

Now this is pointless. You'd need probably a hurricane to exceed operational limits of most fixed wing combat aircrafts. You're saying that only destructing features deserve attention in a simulation?

[VMFA117_Poko]

It seems sorta pointless to add this to the weather.

 

Will the guest ever exceed the aircrafts operational limits?

If not then the normal Lock On wind model is just fine.

Pointless? Do we wanna realistic sim or what? Keep trying assuring us we don't need wind gusting - You won't convince us! It's a must. Talking that I won't feel it in my stomach is pointless. I don't need blackout in high G then, 'cuz I don't feel it in my stomach either :doh:.

[The_GOZR]

I cannot understand the guys that think the weather of now is fine.. and don't want something more realistic .. When i read some answers that some of you write i ... well i'm speechless. ...............................

I mean why do we need joystick anyway?... everething we need is on the keyboard.. right ?

[The_GOZR]

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[The_GOZR]

.......................

 

 

That is the sound of speechless!......

[Nordic]

Every feature which makes the simulation more realistic is a +:thumbup:. And i think adding gusting winds would make a big difference in flying in general. Actually this should be a standard feature of any flightsim...

[Boneski]

Fella's chill out....

 

As it's constantly pointed out... most of you don't know much about what it's like to operate a military weapons platform.

Make no mistake… there is a lot of knowledge about stuff share on gaming boards. But most of it has nothing to do with

facts about combat aviation. Unless you have the hours in the jet… you just don’t know. Reading public data and watching

TV shows ain’t gonna cut it

 

Some of you guys keep talking about realism as if you know what it's all about. To be sure, there is so much more to it then adding a variable to the game’s wind model.

 

The weather model in Lock ON seems pretty cool. It meets the needs of the game. SURE anything could be improved on. There is nothing wrong with improvement and innovation. This is something that this development teams keeps doing with every product release.

 

From reading about the product…MS Flight Sim games seem to get weather data imported into it to give the user the real-time conditions for the area the player is flying in. It has nothing to do with making the game more realistic. It's just a function of what the game models. In this case the game has the extra cpu cycles to translate the weather data. Is it realistic? No. Does it add Realism? No. Does it affect playability? No.

 

If you guys want gust added to the game and if the developers want gusting winds then maybe they will add them. But it will not have a thing to do with this fantastic fantasy some of you guy have with this concept call realism.

 

Remember, if you are sitting behind a desk pushing keys with one hand and marveling at how your pc is rendering the artwork on your screen... It ain't about realism. Some one asked why do you use joysticks… it’s simple because the workload to interface that game would be much harder then need be.

 

There seems to be a camp of people that think HARD is real. That idea is a result of the often seen lack of understanding about what it’s like. And that’s fine. A game forum is not a classroom so it’s not anyone’s job to teach you to think any different.

 

The point of questioning if gust are needed and if they would ever pose a problem to the player if the gust get near the limits is pretty simple. You don't want it to affect playability making the game too hard for players to enjoy.

 

Look, flying while looking at a screen and pushing a bunch of keys and clicking a mouse makes things hard enough. Thank goodness for the pause key, something that you can't do in the air. But more correctly... something that you don't need to do in the air.

Up there your hours of training and academics help you stay ahead of the aircraft when the unexpected happens....

 

The workload on a sim can be much harder then the workload in some cockpits. With flying... it’s a seat of your pants feel. You can't feel with a desktop sim. So by trying to add everything that might happen in the air to a game may effect how the user

enjoys the game.

 

 

Where these products like Black Shark will shine the most is that they will have checklist items and procedures. Engine management, systems management and so one. This will be a great improvement from the past products where there was a lot of system mechanization. From the reading and the videos one can clearly see how different this game is going to be. The flying part is just that. It’s part of the game. Why make it harder then it needs to be.

 

It is clear that these guys could model storm force winds as well as other MET items that would not allow you to stay aloft.

But why waste the CPU cycles?

 

This game should be fun; not so hard that user will just put it on the shelf or even worst…. as they read post from you hardcore heads out there whining about how you don’t like XYZ… and how this and that is not real... so much whining that they will not even buy it.

 

This product is an amazing step forward for this product line… the past products have been fun…. this should not be any different.

[VMFA117_Poko]

I understand what you're saying but look at ABRIS - there will be functions that either won't improve playability and you probably won't ever use them. It will increase realism because it will be accurate but same goes for simulating the enviroment and air flows. I don't want to get just harder sim. If you don't want have such improvement then set wind constant when designing a mission. But I prefer to have more options. And in comparision to FS with Black Shark AFM it WILL improve playability. Im sure about it.

[The_GOZR]

Boneski man what is wrong with you?

 

YES some of us have real jet time.. YES some of us know what they are talking about..

 

You don't want the sim to be difficult well there is and should be different settings.

 

Now Boneski tell us that you are not playing on keyboard only .. are you ?Because you sound like it..

[The_GOZR]

You guys should see what Storm of War is preparing for you with the world physics of this ww2 sim.

[The_GOZR]

Here some small footage of what a sim should have in our days standard this is for the gennadich ww1 coming up soon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnwz3WQfuWM

[VMFA117_Poko]

Nice video GOZR, thanks. It is a step forward in dynamic airflow but unfortunatelly isn't perfect yet. 3D model doesn't affect airflow. You can see how corpuscles go throught the wing. Ofcourse to get it perfect we should have rigs of F1 BMW Sauber's Albert2 supercomputer power but it's great. Such simulating flow should be a minimum for DCS series.

I know... in next engine maybe.

[GGTharos]

I'm sorry, what does this add to jet combat again? Or heli combat for that matter, save for the nuissance of having to correct for gusts, or the great opportunity of flying in air you shouldn't.

 

The primary goal of modern jet combat is to simulate the jet combat - it is to simualte how the sensors, weapons, guns, engines, etc work. Weather conditions have a relatively minimal effect on all this, and at most will force you to change your departure/landing and formation procedures (ie. not flying fingertip because you're being thrown around). I'd call that pretty darned minor.

 

Who here would like to take a half hour to fly their Ka-50 into a great attack position just to get gusted into a cliff? Oh, I'm sure some of you are raising hands.

Rest assured, this level of realism will have a novelty that will wear off after the second time you run into it. Especially when you've got your wife/kids/whoever screaming at you to get off the #(*$&(#$& computer and go sleep/eat/whatever.

 

The PRIMARY goal of a combat sim is to model combat, NOT meteorology. About the only useful atmospheric effect here will be wake turbulence/jetwash which can put your aircraft out of control or stall your engines.

 

Modeling meteo effects is thus way WAY down on the priority scale. It isn't unwelcome, there's simply more important things to model.

 

And frankly, what would REALLY help my immersion is not meteo effects, but a 360 deg hemisphere projector that would allow me to see all around me without staring a a little monitor. NOT wind effects.

 

So, you're flying in this turbulence, and your screen's jittering. After 15 min your eyes are starting to hurt because, you know, your brain corrects for this stuff in the real world, but it can't correct for what's happening on the screen. Is this realistic? Is it immersive? NO!

 

What about when you're landing, you're really bad at it (everyone makes a crappy aproach here and there) and wind shear slams you into the runway. Or heck, takes you out on take-off. Or maybe you're landing, you've trimmed for crosswind, but on your way down there's a bunch of huge honking hangars on the side of the runway and suddenly there's no crosswind. So you have to adjust your trim again and ... WHO CARES?

 

Seriously, it's neat, but for some of this, how long will it be before you get annoyed at it and turn it off? It's just like random equipment/missile/whatever failures.

 

In the real world you need to train for and know all these emergency procedures.

In the simulated world, it's a nice addition, but it really has little to do with what we want to do: Combat. The purpose of a combat sim is to model combat. Not emergencies and attrition due to meteorology.

 

That is why 'turbulences' and all that other silliness is WAY down the priority list. Oh. Did I mention that already?

[VMFA117_Poko]

Christ sake GG! Arcade shooter can simulate weapon systems pretty well too. I want to close to the limits of sim/real as possible (if it is possible for todays rigs) as many ppl here.

[GGTharos]

I haven't seen an arcade shooter simulate weapons particularly well yet.

And if you want to be closer to reality, you need to simulate more battlefield and less air. Wind effects are a minor nuissance if that. Nothing more.

 

I'll say it again: There are FAR more important things to get around to first. ;)

 

Really, all this turbulence etc can just be simulated stochastically ... you roll a die, you get some gusting force applied to your plane if you exceed some % determined by local meteo data ... that's basically all it amounts to. Except when you start getting into the problem of applying these things consistently in MP, and to the AI, AI's reaction to it - oh wait. You wouldn't need to simulate aaaany of that for the AI since er, externally you'd really see no difference and it would save CPU cycles to not bother with it.

 

Starting to see what I'm getting at yet? ;) COMBAT. Not air. ;)

[The_GOZR]

Tharos why are you using the joystick ? you DONT need a joystic for combat..

 

Principal of Flight Tharos.. Why an aircraft fly ?

Seriously Who here flies Condor sim ?

I just can't believe guys that fly a sim thinking that way..

 

BTW have you ever seen a Flight Combat simulator simulate a weapon correctly ? I didn't.

 

Why you guys wont fly Falcon if it is only the hud that you are interested on ?

[Bucic]

Fella's chill out....

 

As it's constantly pointed out... most of you don't know much about what it's like to operate a military weapons platform.

Make no mistake… there is a lot of knowledge about stuff share on gaming boards. But most of it has nothing to do with

facts about combat aviation. Unless you have the hours in the jet… you just don’t know. Reading public data and watching

TV shows ain’t gonna cut it

 

Some of you guys keep talking about realism as if you know what it's all about. To be sure, there is so much more to it then adding a variable to the game’s wind model.

 

Just for this part... Many devoted simmers are professionaly related to aviation. Many of them actually fly or used to fly real planes. Others are not but it's their passion for many years. Many years of eager gathering and connecting pieces of information. Will you dare to say that people who would like to see "wind gusts" in LO know not enough? Well, enough to be aware that atmposphere movement is one of the crucial factors for sensation during flight.

 

It's ok to estimate someones knowledge by few posts on the forum but to put every forum member into one bag is another thing.

 

One thing I have to agree with. Turbulence has far less influence on a high wing load fighter thany on any other aircraft. On the other hand we're talking about playable rotorcraft for know. Will any helicopter pilot say that turbulence is irrelevant for him. Helicopters are not my branch but i doubt it. Polish Mi-24 pilots used to train in Tatras Mountains to familiarazie with mountain specific atmospheric conditions.

[GGTharos]

Yeah, you need the stick for combat. Duh. You need the stick at all times.

Don't try to compare necessities with relatively minor features.

And I really don't care nor need a gliding sim nor gliding of any sort.

I'm fairly certain that neither my virtual jet nor missiles will give a flying thingy about finding an updraft.

 

Tharos why are you using the joystick ? you DONT need a joystic for combat..

 

Principal of Flight Tharos.. Why an aircraft fly ?

Seriously Who here flies Condor sim ?

I just can't believe guys that fly a sim thinking that way..

 

It's amusing how you like to exaggerate. Just because someone doesn't think your stuff isn't necessary, doesn't mean there isn't other stuff that's needed. That is what I'm talking about -specifically- ... modeling the air is very low priority in comparison to modeling the visual environment, the electronic environment, the weapons, etc for modern air combat.

We're not flying ultralights. Those aircraft may have been affected by the slightest updraft or downdraft, but I think you'll find a 20+ metric ton jet could really care less unless its taking off and landing, and frankly, it's not that important since it's not part of COMBAT ;)

 

BTW have you ever seen a Flight Combat simulator simulate a weapon correctly ? I didn't.

 

Why you guys wont fly Falcon if it is only the hud that you are interested on ?

 

And all that said, like I said, modeling the atmosphere is not unwelcome. Just low priority.

 

Bucic: You're right, but this again comes back to just how much realism you're willing to tolerate when you fly a half hour to an hour and get into your perfect attack spot just to get updrafted into enemy WEZ or smashed into the side of a hill. ;)

Other than that (and landing) I don't really see the value of turbulence at all, since again the only cues you will get to correct for it are visual, where in the real aircraft you'd feel the acceleration probably before you saw anything.

[The_GOZR]

Tharos are you flying F4 by any chance ?