Flare-spam not always effective vs. R-73

[henshao]

just throwing it out there but the harrier should be among the most heat-seeker resistant jets in game, as it can mask its relatively high-bypass turbofan entirely, with the wings

[dundun92]

Even with Harrier, from the side?

 

if its a harrier thing its not an R-73 bug, RAZBAM would be the best to report this to

[GGTharos]

Agreed. May I ask ED to buff it little bit. Yesterday someone in GS server launched all of his 4x73 at me and hit nothing but bunch of flares.

 

Nope. Neither you nor the OP have it. There's no bug and no 'buff' needed. These seekers can reject flares up to a limit. The R-73 specifically can keep some 8 targets in 'memory', after that it starts deleting stuff and adding more flares into the FoV practically guarantees that this will happen. Putting enough flares out there to blind the seeker is another thing as well. But enough about this very abbreviated, non-nuanced segway into IRL and back to DCS:

 

Your guarantee that any one of your 4 heaters will hit, when the target is evasive ( + a couple other factors) and deploying flares will always be zero. You're still keeping your bandit defensive, so why aren't you sliding into position to close his options off instead of complaining that the missiles aren't hitting? They're still doing their job.

 

As for the OP - your guarantee that flare spam will decoy a heat seeker is also zero. Things get worse for you if your expectation becomes 'flare spam guarantees decoy', things don't work like this. Making another segway into IRL, again abbreviated and lacking in nuance, not having AB means the missile locks onto the skin IR which is a completely different wavelength ... which flares may not be as effective for, but then how would we know? Back to DCS, your guarantee is still zero and it will stay that way.

 

There's no bug. The simulation could be more nuanced, but improving the simulation is not the same as fixing a bug - everything is working as intended. This is probably why you're not getting any response from ED.

[GGTharos]

just throwing it out there but the harrier should be among the most heat-seeker resistant jets in game, as it can mask its relatively high-bypass turbofan entirely, with the wings

 

Neither the Harrier nor the A-10 (also one aircraft you might consider heat-seeker resistant) are in danger of not being hit by heat seekers. Both have a solid history of being hit by various SAMs.

[henshao]

just throwing it out there but the harrier should be among the most heat-seeker resistant jets in game, as it can mask its relatively high-bypass turbofan entirely, with the wings

 

Neither the Harrier nor the A-10 (also one aircraft you might consider heat-seeker resistant) are in danger of not being hit by heat seekers. Both have a solid history of being hit by various SAMs.

yes, but daniel seems to be implying the harrier is getting hit at a higher rate than the juicier jets

[D4n]

The R-73 specifically can keep some 8 targets in 'memory', after that it starts deleting stuff and adding more flares into the FoV practically guarantees that this will happen. Putting enough flares out there to blind the seeker is another thing as well.

Ah good to know! This isn't modeled in DCS though, I assume

 

your guarantee that flare spam will decoy a heat seeker is also zero.

"Zero" ? But you just wrote that "adding more flares into the FoV practically guarantees" that memory deletes stuff, which I assume is where it gets very likely for the R-73 to miss o_O hm.

[GGTharos]

Ah good to know! This isn't modeled in DCS though, I assume

 

Given that it's knowledge about a single missile, no it isn't. We know nothing about how other missiles handle it, so there's no point in modeling that. The CM model is probability based with certain factors modifying the probabilitiles.

 

"Zero" ? But you just wrote that "adding more flares into the FoV practically guarantees" that memory deletes stuff, which I assume is where it gets very likely for the R-73 to miss o_O hm.

 

And as you know it isn't modeled. So your guarantee for this is is zero and will always be zero. Same as the aircraft's heat signature isn't modeled in any detail other than just a number - there's no simulated exhaust plume which, for the harrier, might not be traditionally maskable given certain nozzle settings etc.

Showing that there's something wrong is not easy and requires a lot of work of repeating the same shot over and over, and then different shots as well. No one cares that you tried to spam one time and you got hit.

[D4n]

On 11/25/2020 at 3:10 PM, GGTharos said:

Showing that there's something wrong is not easy and requires a lot of work of repeating the same shot over and over, and then different shots as well. No one cares that you tried to spam one time and you got hit.

The major issue here is that flare-spam in singleplayer behaves totally different... there, you can easily evade an army of eight R-73s: https://ufile.io/abb8x3ti

While in multiplayer, every 2nd launched R-73 basically is a 100% hit not matter the flare-spam + engine RPM.

Edited December 5, 2020 by DanielNL

[GGTharos]

And you managed to replicate this with the exact same circumstances?

 

There used to be ... things to make life a little easier for 'Player' and perhaps even for 'Client' when 'Client' is host.  Maybe those things are still there.

[D4n]

huh, which "things" ?

[dundun92]

On 12/4/2020 at 8:38 PM, DanielNL said:

 

While in multiplayer, every 2nd launched R-73 basically is a 100% hit not matter the flare-spam + engine RPM.

That simply isnt true, in our squad PvP sessions we evade R-73s all the time with good power modulation + proper flare usage. What you need to do is do a test in SP and repeat it in MP with conditions as similar as possible

[D4n]

On 12/8/2020 at 2:22 AM, dundun92 said:

That simply isnt true, in our squad PvP sessions we evade R-73s all the time with good power modulation + proper flare usage. What you need to do is do a test in SP and repeat it in MP with conditions as similar as possible

How many of you fly Harrier in your squad PvP sessions?