BVR Mistakes

[SharpeXB]

So I find playing against the AI, I’ll get obliterated trying to fight BVR. Basically the radar guided missiles take so long to reach a target that the rest of the enemy flight will literally have merged with you. BVR distracts you heads down in the cockpit and the weapons are pretty ineffective at long range. And maintaining any lock on them, even a 120 inhibits your maneuvering defensively which you must do constantly in the face of the extended range ET missiles. The R lethal range of these missiles is well within visual so it seems you’d be better off fighting WVR with the close combat radar. The only use of BVR would be to just threaten or force an enemy defensive. Yes I know all the F Pole and Cranking stuff. Cranking in front of an enemy flight will get you zapped.

If anything I try to crank away from the enemy and not towards them.

Yeah this is game-land and not the real world where I’m sure real pilots don’t suicidally rush into dogfighting. I know somebody will say “play online” but I’m mostly interested in SP and all the servers are restricted to Open Beta which I’m not interested in. Any thoughts?

[Elnocho3]

What are you fighting against? What BVR tactics are you deploying? There’s not really enough info for anyone to try and help you - BVR is a game within a game. Maybe post a track or a tacview file

[Bunny Clark]

Definitely not my experience, I find the Hornet to be quite effective in BVR and can usually employ launch and leave tactics against the AI without too much trouble unless I am very outnumbered.

 

If you're merging at the same time as missile impact you're definitely not flying with ideal BVR tactics to maximize your separation and control closure.

[Pikey]

If anything I try to crank away from the enemy and not towards them.

Do not understand this.

 

 

DCS AI ALWAYS defends. You should not be in the position of your crank at the pitbull timer thinking, "hmm, he's still spiking me"

 

You watch your spike, at pitbull, quick notch and assess. Then it's guaranteed banzai since that AI is doing loops and chaff and messing about. The AI is quite hard to connect a missile to, so try to wait a little bit or getting a higher shot. If you are under 10K feet the ranges are considerably reduced and you may be overestimating your reach.

[Fri13]

So I find playing against the AI, I’ll get obliterated trying to fight BVR.

 

Depends always what you have and what enemy has, so what you have options.

 

 

Going against various top BVR fighters, like even F-14B with AIM-54C is fairly easy to deal with the AIM-9X and AIM-120 combos. The most challenging part is spotting the missiles as you need to visually know where to look at it to get AIM-9X locked on it. And I still fail in that thing often if the enemy fighter will not crank away after launch but stays behind the missile, as then the AIM-9X will very likely get a lock on those with radar and your AIM-9X will miss the missile and you die for that.

 

I like mostly "unwinnable" fights, like flying in Su-27S against 4-5 F-15C excellent AI. Just full push toward the AI, get them defensive with R-27ER, avoid their AIM-120C shots with heavy well timed maneuvering, keep them scattered across with R-27ET's and go for close range kills with R-73 or R-27ET's. The key is to be "hitting punches all around you to each and everyone around you". So that you do not give them time to breath or turn on you. They become very dangerous if they get opposite sides of you (squeeze you bettween) and at AIM-9 range as then you basically die.

 

So building up a mental picture how they are around you, and then what weapon is most suitable against each of them, as you can only support one R-27ER at the time and that should be put on the most dangerous one that you must eliminate from the combo. Others you keep out with maneuvers and putting heat seekers keep them busy.

 

If you have difficulties how and when to do something, train first with labels on. As you have something in situation that you are missing. Be it a distance, altitude or speed. And then your launch range etc. So check the aircraft and missiles you are using and what is against you, use the labels first to see better the scenario.

 

And I do recommend TacView application for learning as it gives a nice visual for seeing that what did you do wrong.

You don't need to exit DCS to get the TacView playing the scene, it is enough that you just restart the mission or you exit to debriefing to open up the TacView ACMI file.

 

But you do not need TacView, you can do the similar thing in the DCS replay mode using F10 map. But you don't really get the altitude and visuals same way. But then if you jump to F2 view and you zoom far away, then enabling labels and you can rotate around and get a little similar view what is happening.

[Exorcet]

One issue right now is proper AIM-120 guidance is in OB but not stable.

 

 

Stable AMRAAM eats chaff. OB AMRAAM is very hard to spoof and has a much larger effective range.

[SharpeXB]

What are you fighting against? What BVR tactics are you deploying? There’s not really enough info for anyone to try and help you - BVR is a game within a game. Maybe post a track or a tacview file

Usually the 4v4 Sparrow or 8v8 quick missions. So it’s Su-27s and MiG-29s

I did start using Tacview to check out the action.

Usually I will try to open with a long range shot, put the bandit on the edge of my scan and then crank. After that it’s a furball. Being surrounded is certain death in that case. Yeah I could try posting a Tacview.

 

PS Tacview does seem to actually work for SP despite the DCS track files always being broken. They never play back the action correctly so they aren’t worth looking at.

Edited July 15, 2020 by SharpeXB

[SharpeXB]

Do not understand this.

Making the final leg of the crank away from the enemy and not end up in their midst.

If the fight is towards my right, it seems better to start turning right at long range, Fire, then crank left. Otherwise I would finish the maneuver surrounded by the enemy.

[SharpeXB]

Ok here's a Tacview

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vcucuckmse5mogj/Tacview-20200715-084254-DCS%202KILLS.zip.acmi?dl=0

 

A better example but here's what I'm talking about. See how I have a bandit locked for the long range shot, he defends which leaves me tracking him for too long while another enemy comes very close within visual. In this case I broke away from the long shot and took on the closer adversary. I do have a video but it's too large, in it I can plainly see the two closer aircraft and should have acted even sooner. So these kills are both within visual. The AIM-7 just served to make one enemy turn away

[SharpeXB]

If you're merging at the same time as missile impact you're definitely not flying with ideal BVR tactics to maximize your separation and control closure.

I’m not merging with the target I’m merging with their wingman. The target will defend and lengthen the flight time of the missile. During that time the rest of the enemy flight will be on top of me. The mistake I figure is to not be aware of what’s going on and relying on the BVR shot.

[SharpeXB]

Mods: this isn’t a “bug” it’s a question about tactics.

[Sandman1330]

The problem isn’t with your tactics, it’s with the lack of reliable AI wingmen. It makes these SP 4v4 and 8v8 missions really hard.

 

In real life you’d be in voice and DL comms with your flight, you’d have a game plan and assign targets amongst the flight. In DCS the enemy AI all seem to go after the player and ignore AI wingmen, and friendly AI are just stupid.

 

One tactic I’ve found often works to “trick” your wingmen into helping is to use flight - cover me. Then you can engage the enemy using multiple TWS shots, support them to pit bull then skate, and as soon as the enemy commit to shooting you, your AI wingmen will start engaging and actually do something! So while you’ve gone cold to defend, your wingmen will be engaging whatever is left over from your initial volley. It doesn’t always work but often helps even things out.

Edited July 18, 2020 by Sandman1330