Using the SPO-15LM system to evade incoming missiles?

[Alexrey]

Be confident that the missile is CLOSER to you than the plane is. :megalol:

:(

 

So you guys just guess?

[Fudd]

Reminds me of a Squad Flight where 159th_Fudd vapourized a 4-Ship of T-Frogs...

 

 

What?? I would never do such a thing :D

 

 

Oh look, a froggy in my HTD... Splat!

[S77th-konkussion]

Well there are other tactics & defenses to employ. You may be able to break the lock with strategic jammer use. Veteran SU flyers work together in a little game of "Bait the Eagle" One guy presents himself as the target to draw them in, while another lies in wait to take them out- or at least induce a bit of panic that can be exploited.

 

Again- battling AI negates (or at least marginalizes) the usefulness of the majority of realistic tactics. Their ability to display sheer idiocy while simultaneously posessing 100% situational awareness is breathtaking...

[Fudd]

Well I agree that AI is rediculous and very rarely mimics a human pilot, there are many instances when it can be used to learn about the important aspects of air to air combat. Rich has done a great job in his tutorials and his lesson on dodging Aim-54's was one of the first lessons I took before jumping on-line.

 

The chart that Viper gave you was based on the need to estimate distances using the SPO. This is seen in an ECM environment when you can detect the jammer but dont know its range. Using other cues available to you, its possible to guess what aircraft your up against, use the SPO to estimate his range and then take a successful HOJ shot. If done correctly the missle arrives one or two seconds after burn through and by the time the pilot reacts its too late.

 

The only thing I can tell you is to study Rich's tutorials and practice using AI to estimate range. Take tracks of every engagement you enter and critique yourself afterwards. In time the SPO will become second nature, practice, practice, practice!

 

Edit: Oh yeah, head on a swivel. Another Fudd once told me "you would be amazed the stuff you see once you take your head out of the cockpit..." lol

[GGTharos]

... I always thought that was 'bait the Flanker' ... :megalol:

 

Well there are other tactics & defenses to employ. You may be able to break the lock with strategic jammer use. Veteran SU flyers work together in a little game of "Bait the Eagle" One guy presents himself as the target to draw them in, while another lies in wait to take them out- or at least induce a bit of panic that can be exploited.

[S77th-konkussion]

That too. :D

[RedTiger]

Their ability to display sheer idiocy while simultaneously posessing 100% situational awareness is breathtaking...

 

Too true. I'd honestly rather them be stupid AND have crap SA. :cry:

 

I'd say you can fight them realistically just fine if you purposefully limit yourself to realistic tactics but you can't fight them the way people fight online since most of that seems to take advantage of the limits of human awareness. For example, approaching the AI from from anything other than 7, 6, or 5 o'clock with IRST is futile. They magically know where to look for a tally and can instantly lock you up.

 

Back to the SPO, I've always found it interesting that like many things in LOMAC, its somewhat of a gamey trade-off. You can either have the ability to detect multiple radars and know almost exactly what all of them are, or you can detect a couple of them, only have basic info about them, but be able to dodge an ARH missile easily.

[GGTharos]

Which is funny, considering that the US RWR's give you a whole lot more awareness and reliability in the 'SA' area than the SPO-15 ever could ... n/a LOMAC.

[Alexrey]

The only thing I can tell you is to study Rich's tutorials and practice using AI to estimate range. Take tracks of every engagement you enter and critique yourself afterwards. In time the SPO will become second nature, practice, practice, practice!

 

Edit: Oh yeah, head on a swivel. Another Fudd once told me "you would be amazed the stuff you see once you take your head out of the cockpit..." lol

I don't have any trouble understanding the SPO anymore thanks to you guys helping me out, but I'm still confused on how to know where and how far an SARH missile is when it's fired at you. With labels off and an SARH missile heading for me I just kinda panic since I don't know when it's gonna hit me. :joystick:

[GGTharos]

You A) See it

B) Guesstimate. Practice your evasive maneuvers a few times and you'll be getting it right while dodging blind, no panic.

 

And for crying out-loud, don't dodge head-on. That's just asking for it.

[RedTiger]

I don't have any trouble understanding the SPO anymore thanks to you guys helping me out, but I'm still confused on how to know where and how far an SARH missile is when it's fired at you. With labels off and an SARH missile heading for me I just kinda panic since I don't know when it's gonna hit me. :joystick:

 

I feel your pain on this one. Getting a bigger, better monitor has helped (no lie -- many of my problems in seeing stuff in both LOMAC and F4AF came from having a crappy monitor! :doh: ), but when you read about missile evasion techniques that say "acquire a visual tally on the missile", I do start to wonder. It makes sense with SAMs, not so much with air to air missiles. If you CAN see the missile, as I'm sure you're aware, its very easy to tell whether or not you've shaken it.

[Alexrey]

You A) See it

B) Guesstimate. Practice your evasive maneuvers a few times and you'll be getting it right while dodging blind, no panic.

 

And for crying out-loud, don't dodge head-on. That's just asking for it.

 

I usually have trouble spotting an incoming missile if it was fired above or level with my aircraft because the background of the sky seems to make the smoke almost impossible to see. I guesstimated that head-on it'll take about 20 seconds for the missile to hit you if fired at around 20km away, and 24 seconds side-on.

 

Does everyone just put the missile on their 3/9 line and bleed the missile's energy off? :huh: I always thought that you'd be at a disadvantage because you have to turn back in to take the shot.

[GGTharos]

You put it on the 3/9 line to dodge it, not necessarily to bleed its energy off.

 

Let's think of a standard BVR scenario:

 

You and your target are approaching each other head-on, at the same altitude and airspeed. You both launch SARH at each other when in range, at the same time.

 

What you should do:

- Turn away from the target as far as you can, without dropping lock. This should put him on your 10 or 2.

- Start a dive to prevent him from notching you.

- Start pumping the nose up and down - smooth 3-4 g vertical reversals. This is where you bleed the missile of energy. If launched at significant ranges, you won't have to worry about dodging it.

- A little while after you get the launch warning, start pre-emptively launching chaff and flares, if you think you will need them. This can decoy the missile before it ever gets a chance to lock onto you. 3-5sec intervals are ok, if you're sure it's tracking you, don't die with chaff and flare onboard! USE THEM!

- Hopefuly, he didn't do the same, and has now flown head-first into your missile, which hits a significant time sooner than his missile would take to reach you.

 

Now, lets look at a scenario you seem to be talking about:

 

You've got a bandit at medium-ish distance, and he has just launched on you.

 

You can:

- Do what I described above, after firing back, but the chance of being hit is higher (but not as high as flying into his missile ;) )

- Decide you're in a bad position, a slice-back in a hard, sustained-speed 180 to put him on your tail and run; run him into your SAMs, or your friends, or out of fuel - or, if he's human, he just might let you go. Your choice.

 

 

Another scenario is being shot up close, and you have a few choices here:

- Launch a missile at him to scare him off, and turn to try and put his weapon on your 3/9. Pump countermeasures like crazy, and execute an orthogonal barrel roll once his missile's in the right position (practice this time); you will want to use a heat seeker or ARH here, so you won't have to worry about it after it comes off your rails.

- You may not have time to launch a missile. If you are feeling suicidal, and you think it's ok to just trade deaths, try to launch a missile on him, but you WILL be hit. Otherwise, do it like a real pilot, dodge hist shots as best you can, and hope your wingnut nails him for you.

What? Your wingnut got shot down? Why didn't you abort the mission? ;)

 

 

There's other scenarios and answers, naturally.

 

Does everyone just put the missile on their 3/9 line and bleed the missile's energy off? :huh: I always thought that you'd be at a disadvantage because you have to turn back in to take the shot.

[S77th-konkussion]

I would say it's .. both. You may be able to maintain the STT lock whilst performing the manuever. Don't bank too steeply, and try to keep his aspect right on the edge of the scan cone. Hopefully you knew that you can slew the scan cone left or right. (russian planes)

[159th_Viper]

...I usually have trouble spotting an incoming missile....

 

Do not concentrate so much on attempting to spot the missile - you know it has been launched - concentrate on defeating it as soon as possible.

 

Personally I think trying to visually acquire a missile fired BVR is just wasting precious time. Must be said that I'm no Fighter Pilot (Too cozy in my Toad-Pit), but when I do on odd occasion strap a Fast-Jet to my back I'm surprised at how fast things happen when the going gets Rough - every second counts.

 

With SARH the Bandit has to keep you locked - so the easiest way to defeat the missile you know is inbound is to break his lock - assuming you're on the defensive to begin with (Oh Fcuk - where did he come fromscenario).

 

Rather rely on your RWR to tell you what you need to know and focus on ways of defeating the missile! As GG says: Pick your battles. Better to RTB with no kills and you still being alive ;)

 

En soos bo al genoem is: Oefen, Oefen en Nogmaals Oefen, Ou Maat :D

[Alexrey]

You put it on the 3/9 line to dodge it, not necessarily to bleed its energy off.

 

Let's think of a standard BVR scenario:

 

You and your target are approaching each other head-on, at the same altitude and airspeed. You both launch SARH at each other when in range, at the same time.

 

What you should do:

- Turn away from the target as far as you can, without dropping lock. This should put him on your 10 or 2.

- Start a dive to prevent him from notching you.

- Start pumping the nose up and down - smooth 3-4 g vertical reversals. This is where you bleed the missile of energy. If launched at significant ranges, you won't have to worry about dodging it.

- A little while after you get the launch warning, start pre-emptively launching chaff and flares, if you think you will need them. This can decoy the missile before it ever gets a chance to lock onto you. 3-5sec intervals are ok, if you're sure it's tracking you, don't die with chaff and flare onboard! USE THEM!

- Hopefuly, he didn't do the same, and has now flown head-first into your missile, which hits a significant time sooner than his missile would take to reach you.

 

Now, lets look at a scenario you seem to be talking about:

 

You've got a bandit at medium-ish distance, and he has just launched on you.

 

You can:

- Do what I described above, after firing back, but the chance of being hit is higher (but not as high as flying into his missile ;) )

- Decide you're in a bad position, a slice-back in a hard, sustained-speed 180 to put him on your tail and run; run him into your SAMs, or your friends, or out of fuel - or, if he's human, he just might let you go. Your choice.

 

 

Another scenario is being shot up close, and you have a few choices here:

- Launch a missile at him to scare him off, and turn to try and put his weapon on your 3/9. Pump countermeasures like crazy, and execute an orthogonal barrel roll once his missile's in the right position (practice this time); you will want to use a heat seeker or ARH here, so you won't have to worry about it after it comes off your rails.

- You may not have time to launch a missile. If you are feeling suicidal, and you think it's ok to just trade deaths, try to launch a missile on him, but you WILL be hit. Otherwise, do it like a real pilot, dodge hist shots as best you can, and hope your wingnut nails him for you.

What? Your wingnut got shot down? Why didn't you abort the mission? ;)

 

 

There's other scenarios and answers, naturally.

 

I always hear about this orthogonal roll but have never seen it first hand before. What the heck is it?! Oh and what are vertical reversals? I thought chaff and flares are only used against incoming heat seekers, and in that case you don't get a warning right?

[GGTharos]

Chaff is against radar homers, flares are against heat seekers. When in doubt (because under some circumstances, even a radar missile might not give you warning) use both.

 

A vertical reversal just means fly up, roll inverted, fly down, roll upright, fly up again ... make sure you maintain your speed as best you can.

 

The orthogonal roll is a very simple concept:

Put the missile on the 3-9 line (ie ... glue it to your wingtip) ... if you can't see the missile, put the offending radar source on your 3-9 line. Try to point the wingtip at the missile, rather than just flying level. When the missile is close enough, or you think it's close enough, pull the stick all the way back to start a hard pull-up, and then roll into the missile. If you did everything else right (trying to bleed it off of energy, etc) it should pass harmlessly underneath you.

There are variations on this theme as well.

As soon as that missile passes by, unload the aircraft and smoothly point the nose back down to regain airspeed, because #2 is probably incoming.

[159th_Viper]

.....I thought chaff and flares are only used against incoming heat seekers....

 

Chaff - Decoys ARH/SARH Missiles - useless against I/R Missiles

 

Flares - Decoys I/R Missiles - useless against ARH/SARH Missiles

 

Edit: GG typed faster :)

[Force_Feedback]

Strange that SARH missiles are not detected when guided, as the guidance signal is different from the tracking one (that's how jammers like the Beryoza and probably the Sorbytsia know when to jam certain frequencies). Strange that the SPO doesn't pick it it, especially on the Mig-29S or Su-27s with jamming pods.

[S77th-konkussion]

Well- I'm not "in the know" but that specific bit of modeling makes sense to me as the missile is not emitting any energy on it's own. The SPO picks up on the lock due to the focused radar energy. It's picks up the launch itself due to the change in wavelength.. what's it called... "continuous wave" or something?

[GGTharos]

It isn't strange at all; modern SARH missiles do NOT require a wavelength or PRF change from STT mode, therefore, if you are locked, you may as well assume you've been fired on.

Older SARH missiles required special waveforms etc.

It's likely that you should never get a launch warning for any type of missile from a playable A/C.

This is also showcased by a desert storm engagement where an F-15 was locked by a MiG-29. The pilot went into the notch right away, no mention of a launch in the debrief, nor a launch warning.

 

Sorbitsya doesn't jam on launch warning - it jams on lock warnings, as do most SPJ's.

 

Some SAM's use a different search and fire control radar; once you are locked by the fire control radar, you can assume you've been launched on, and that alone might be reason enough for your RWR to scream at you about missiles warnings etc; however, it is precisely the fact that all of these things are sort of iffy that RWRs are to a large extent classified, so we just don't know. ;)

 

Strange that SARH missiles are not detected when guided, as the guidance signal is different from the tracking one (that's how jammers like the Beryoza and probably the Sorbytsia know when to jam certain frequencies). Strange that the SPO doesn't pick it it, especially on the Mig-29S or Su-27s with jamming pods.

[Alexrey]

Chaff is against radar homers, flares are against heat seekers. When in doubt (because under some circumstances, even a radar missile might not give you warning) use both.

 

A vertical reversal just means fly up, roll inverted, fly down, roll upright, fly up again ... make sure you maintain your speed as best you can.

 

The orthogonal roll is a very simple concept:

Put the missile on the 3-9 line (ie ... glue it to your wingtip) ... if you can't see the missile, put the offending radar source on your 3-9 line. Try to point the wingtip at the missile, rather than just flying level. When the missile is close enough, or you think it's close enough, pull the stick all the way back to start a hard pull-up, and then roll into the missile. If you did everything else right (trying to bleed it off of energy, etc) it should pass harmlessly underneath you.

There are variations on this theme as well.

As soon as that missile passes by, unload the aircraft and smoothly point the nose back down to regain airspeed, because #2 is probably incoming.

 

So when you talk about the orthogonal roll do you mean something like this?:

[GGTharos]

Not exactly; I am talking about a 3D maneuver. It has nothing to do with turning to target to attack (you could do that, but it's not always the case that it is a good move); but the part this capture correctly is that you turn to put the missileon the 3-9. WHEN that is done, roll the aircraft so that your banked in such a way that you are wings level to the missile. Ie. if it's coming from below, you roll towards the missile so that your lift vector is perpendicular to the missile.

 

In other words, the missile has to be about 90deg to your flight path (3-9 line) AND 90 deg to your top (the direction in which you will pull).

[RedTiger]

So when you talk about the orthogonal roll do you mean something like this?:

 

The BEST way to see what an orthagonal roll is like is to watch that video linked from Ironhand's site. There's also another one that deals with the MiG-29 vs. an F-15. The MiG one will show you both from the cockpit and third-person perspective how to do the roll.

 

Pay attention to the MiG-29 one especially. Ironhand's using the MiG-29A -- that means no jamming, and no 4+ RE missiles. The Aim-120s actually out-range his R-27s and he's only got two of them, so you can see how the roll and the SPO warnings help him defeat the Eagle.

[Alexrey]

Ok well I've been trying to evade SARH missiles but I can never do it! The only thing that seems to work is to turn 180 degrees from the missile and fly the other way... but that isn't any fun and takes away the intensity of A2A combat. :joystick::pilotfly: