Using the SPO-15LM system to evade incoming missiles?

[GGTharos]

It's pretty realistic though; when it doubt, retreat and live to fight another day.

Try doing the evasion like I told you, but with labels. BUT! Try to do it WITHOUT looking at the label. Only use it to cross-check and understand what's happening. Ignore the distance on the label as much as you can.

Once you get used to the procedure, turn off the labels, try again.

[RedTiger]

Ok well I've been trying to evade SARH missiles but I can never do it! The only thing that seems to work is to turn 180 degrees from the missile and fly the other way... but that isn't any fun and takes away the intensity of A2A combat. :joystick::pilotfly:

 

Turning around and dragging the missile is plenty good, but I find this less useful in LOMAC than other sims. I find it too hard to locate the bandit with radar again after that.

 

Here's something that might help, if we're talking about the AI and the AI only. This comes from watching lots of AI and missile behavior on Tacview. The AI will almost always break lock to notch your missile. How can you tell? Watch your HUD and your display. If you're fighting a SARH armed opponent and he turns 90 deg or more away from you, you can almost be certain that he's broken lock, his missile has gone ballistic and is useless. Depending on the situation, you can keep the AI from firing all but the first shot, and sometimes not even that. If you think turning away is boring, than this is for you since its the exact opposite. In many cases you can keep the heat on the bandit and continue to intercept until he's busy dodging and notching right in your missiles' NEZ. If you get that close start dropping flares and keep your eyes peeled for a heater launch. Orthagonal rolls work well on those too. :)

[Alexrey]

It's pretty realistic though; when it doubt, retreat and live to fight another day.

Try doing the evasion like I told you, but with labels. BUT! Try to do it WITHOUT looking at the label. Only use it to cross-check and understand what's happening. Ignore the distance on the label as much as you can.

Once you get used to the procedure, turn off the labels, try again.

 

I tried doing some vertical reversals which work VERY well... but once I've evaded the SARH missile, my SA is completely buggered and I have to now look for him which is usually pointless since he lets off another one while I'm looking, and so I'm forced back into more vertical reversals. So your technique that you gave me works, but my SA doesn't. How do you "get back in the game" once you've finished your evasive maneuvers?

[GGTharos]

Well ... you can try to remember landmarks to know where to look for him after you turn back in, you can try to remember the approximate heading, etc ... there's lots of little things, and all I can say is that you just 'get used to it with practice'.

 

I personally try not to re-attack unless I can get sight, or I know he's really far (if he's over 20km away, for example, I know I have enough time to launch on him while his missile is coming at me, and reverse again)

[S77th-konkussion]

I tried doing some vertical reversals which work VERY well... but once I've evaded the SARH missile, my SA is completely buggered and I have to now look for him which is usually pointless since he lets off another one while I'm looking, and so I'm forced back into more vertical reversals. So your technique that you gave me works, but my SA doesn't. How do you "get back in the game" once you've finished your evasive maneuvers?

 

By getting a track IR.

[Ironhand]

How do you "get back in the game" once you've finished your evasive maneuvers?

Unless you are either 1) very cagey or 2) very lucky, you don't. You disengage and leave the area as fast as you can. Once you decide that you are no longer being chased, you turn and re-enter the area. The problem is that, once you are completely defensive, you are...well...completely defensive. If you are unsure what to do, get the hell out of Dodge. But, if you want to retake the initiative, think about what you know. You have all the SA you need.

 

For starters, if you make a vertical reversal, you already know where the enemy is--behind you. (That assumes you went straight up--or down. If nothing else, check you heading before you reverse.) If he was to your left front when you reversed, he is now on your right rear after the reversal. Etc, etc. So you know which way to turn to get your radar pointed at him the quickest. Also, if the two of you were co-altitude and you climbed, he is likely to be below you, etc. So you should have a pretty good idea of whether to look up or down in relation to yourself, too.

 

Before you turn to re-engage and are far enough away to re-engage using BVR, set up your radar for what you plan to do. If you are high and want to stay there, and you think he's below you, slew your radar down. If you are turning to the right, slew your radar right. That way your radar beam is already scanning closer to the piece of sky where you expect him to be. If you are WVR, use one of the WVR modes--Vertical Scan mode is one I like a lot.

 

As far as caginess goes, here's an example. Once you have V1.12 and you are flying against a human opponent, if you think you are beyond burn-through range, turn on your jammer to mask your altitude. Make an extreme altitude change with the jammer on. For a short time you will have the advantage. He will usually begin looking for you at the last altitude you were. Most likely, only when he can't find you there will he start looking up or down.

 

Rich

[159th_Viper]

As said above, use your Heading tape and/or HSI to keep position/aid in SA: If the Bandit is on Heading 090 off your nose and you turn tail and run, add 180 degrees to 090 and extend on heading 270. That way you know when you turn back in to re-engage you'll know to be looking in the approximate area of Heading 090. Same for a 90 degree break right or left etc etc.

[Alexrey]

By getting a track IR.

I have the poor man's TrackIR... a mouse! :huh: I use the mouse and keyboard to fly and it seems to work pretty well. I've set it up so that I never have to take my hands off the mouse or WASD keys when flying. But the problem is that I have a 14 inch screen with a huge scratch in the middle so even during dogfight range I have a lot of trouble spotting the bandit. :(

 

Unless you are either 1) very cagey or 2) very lucky, you don't. You disengage and leave the area as fast as you can. Once you decide that you are no longer being chased, you turn and re-enter the area. The problem is that, once you are completely defensive, you are...well...completely defensive. If you are unsure what to do, get the hell out of Dodge. But, if you want to retake the initiative, think about what you know. You have all the SA you need.

 

For starters, if you make a vertical reversal, you already know where the enemy is--behind you. (That assumes you went straight up--or down. If nothing else, check you heading before you reverse.) If he was to your left front when you reversed, he is now on your right rear after the reversal. Etc, etc. So you know which way to turn to get your radar pointed at him the quickest. Also, if the two of you were co-altitude and you climbed, he is likely to be below you, etc. So you should have a pretty good idea of whether to look up or down in relation to yourself, too.

 

Before you turn to re-engage and are far enough away to re-engage using BVR, set up your radar for what you plan to do. If you are high and want to stay there, and you think he's below you, slew your radar down. If you are turning to the right, slew your radar right. That way your radar beam is already scanning closer to the piece of sky where you expect him to be. If you are WVR, use one of the WVR modes--Vertical Scan mode is one I like a lot.

 

As far as caginess goes, here's an example. Once you have V1.12 and you are flying against a human opponent, if you think you are beyond burn-through range, turn on your jammer to mask your altitude. Make an extreme altitude change with the jammer on. For a short time you will have the advantage. He will usually begin looking for you at the last altitude you were. Most likely, only when he can't find you there will he start looking up or down.

 

Rich

Okay, from your explanation is seems like I wasn't even doing vertical reversals. :huh: My idea of a vertical reversal is that, if you view your plane from your six, after a few vertical reversals a spiral will form behind you...

[GGTharos]

That is a barrel roll. A vertical reversal is like this: /\/\/\/\/\ in one plane (no left or right), but to make it less confusing, let's call is a 'Vertical S' or 'Vertical Snake'. It's like a wave.

[RedTiger]

Keyboard? Did I miss that in the very beginning? :eek:

 

If you've gotten this far on a keyboard, sir, I am amazed. I would have worried about a joystick before I ever installed the game!

[Alexrey]

That is a barrel roll. A vertical reversal is like this: /\/\/\/\/\ in one plane (no left or right), but to make it less confusing, let's call is a 'Vertical S' or 'Vertical Snake'. It's like a wave.

AAAH! Okay now I get it! But I'm guessing that once you reach the peak you invert the plane so that you can start the descend quickly, and same for when you reach the trough?

 

Keyboard? Did I miss that in the very beginning? :eek:

 

If you've gotten this far on a keyboard, sir, I am amazed. I would have worried about a joystick before I ever installed the game!

HAHAHA! Thank you! :) The reason I don't have a joystick yet is because I'm worried that it won't have enough buttons and I'll be forced to switch between the mouse, keyboard and stick. How many buttons does the average mid-range stick have?

[GGTharos]

AAAH! Okay now I get it! But I'm guessing that once you reach the peak you invert the plane so that you can start the descend quickly, and same for when you reach the trough?

 

Correct :) Negative g's=bad (At least in reality. N/A LOMAC)

 

HAHAHA! Thank you! :) The reason I don't have a joystick yet is because I'm worried that it won't have enough buttons and I'll be forced to switch between the mouse, keyboard and stick. How many buttons does the average mid-range stick have?

 

How much are you willing to pay for it, and what functions do you want on it? For fighting, it'd be useful to fit the following (for me):

 

1 Radar on/off

2 Radar Slew

4 Radar Cursor

2 Radar Range

1 Lock Button

3 CAC modes

1 EOS on/off

1 Fire Guns/Launch missiles (2 for US Jets)

 

So just with all this we are looking at ... 15 buttons ... you could use a stick with 10 buttons and some sort of 'shift' switch.

 

Additional functions:

1 Push-to-talk

2 Airbrake in/out

1 flaps in/out

 

There's 4 more buttons.

 

Nope, no fuel/gear/lights/views/trinkets on my stick.

 

Er. Might need another 2 for trim on most birds too.

[RedTiger]

 

HAHAHA! Thank you! :) The reason I don't have a joystick yet is because I'm worried that it won't have enough buttons and I'll be forced to switch between the mouse, keyboard and stick. How many buttons does the average mid-range stick have?

 

In addition to GG's suggestion, I'll say this. You want at least two hat switches, or something similar that is as easy to use at a hat switch. THREE switches if you don't have Track IR. Even better, you want a HOTAS. It is a pain in the rear to have to work radar AND the target designator unless they're on the same stick. Its still some-what irritating to not be able to work them at the same time. I always thought that a HOTAS was just an expensive toy that looked cool and gave you extra buttons. Then I played Flanker 2.5 and it finally clicked as to why a HOTAS is optimal.

 

This is the way I feel about it, but since you've been using a keyboard and mouse, maybe you're willing to put up with more and just getting a Joystick. I can recommend the Saitek Aviator as a cheap, easy to find stick if you don't mind a stick that feels light. It has two throttles (which can be used for any axis, not just a throttle) and 32 possible combinations on the base buttons using the A/B switch.

[nscode]

In Russian birds the flight mode selectors are on the panel, so you can leave those on the keyboard ;)

[GGTharos]

I started flying LOMAC v1.00 with a littel $5 cheapie stick that had two buttons and a thumbwheel for a throttle :D

It was my standby for JF-18 as well.

 

I snapped it in half in the 3rd dogfight I had in LOFC.

I don't remember what server it was on, or who my opponent was; we emptied our missile racks out (we both dodged everything), and got into a turning fight. Just as I was reversing to get on his tail (he was an Su-27) my stick snapped off the base. I still gunned him down, and we both had a lot of fun but man, I tell ya, forcing that stick down onto the base and trying to hold it there while maneuvering was painful.

 

I got an X-45 next thing :D

 

This is the way I feel about it, but since you've been using a keyboard and mouse, maybe you're willing to put up with more and just getting a Joystick. I can recommend the Saitek Aviator as a cheap, easy to find stick if you don't mind a stick that feels light. It has two throttles (which can be used for any axis, not just a throttle) and 32 possible combinations on the base buttons using the A/B switch.

[Alexrey]

Hmm I think I'll just stick to my mouse and keyboard since I'm only willing to spend a max of about R500 (about $65 U.S.). I don't wanna get a stick and find out it doesn't have enough buttons. That would be a huge bummer.

 

I've been trying the proper vertical reversals and I can see that they will take a lot of practice to perfect. But from what I've seen so far it still doesn't seem to bleed off enough energy from the missile and it usually hits me anyway even though it is going a lot slower. Is this normal, or does it usually bleed of enough energy to stop the missile from hitting you? Do you have to pull a last second maneuver like the orthogonal roll or something?

[GGTharos]

Ask what sticks people use. Some people use sticks at or less than at that price.

 

Hmm I think I'll just stick to my mouse and keyboard since I'm only willing to spend a max of about R500 (about $65 U.S.). I don't wanna get a stick and find out it doesn't have enough buttons. That would be a huge bummer.

 

Yep, a last ditch maneuver is called for - and you -better- not be doing those reversals head-on! ;) Remember, put the bandit on your gimbal to make the missile fly longer!

Also, if the shot comes from pretty close up, put it on the 3-9 and just do an ortho-roll. Plenty of chaff/flare, too.

 

 

I've been trying the proper vertical reversals and I can see that they will take a lot of practice to perfect. But from what I've seen so far it still doesn't seem to bleed off enough energy from the missile and it usually hits me anyway even though it is going a lot slower. Is this normal, or does it usually bleed of enough energy to stop the missile from hitting you? Do you have to pull a last second maneuver like the orthogonal roll or something?

[RedTiger]

Hmm I think I'll just stick to my mouse and keyboard since I'm only willing to spend a max of about R500 (about $65 U.S.). I don't wanna get a stick and find out it doesn't have enough buttons. That would be a huge bummer.

 

The Aviator (AV8R) stick I mentioned is just a little over half that price. If you're willing to spend $65, I'd say save it until you can get about $100 and just get a x52.

[Alexrey]

Yep, a last ditch maneuver is called for - and you -better- not be doing those reversals head-on! ;) Remember, put the bandit on your gimbal to make the missile fly longer!

Also, if the shot comes from pretty close up, put it on the 3-9 and just do an ortho-roll. Plenty of chaff/flare, too.

 

Yup I've given up on the head-on evasions, way too risky (what's a gimbal BTW)! :smartass: You say that a last ditch maneuver is needed but how do you know when to do it? And during the close range shot how do you know when to do the ortho-roll?

[GGTharos]

Gimbal is a physical device that allows something mounted on it to point in different directions.

A radar antenna in a fighter is usually mounted on a gimbal, and so its a missile's seeker.

 

When I say 'put him on the gimbal' I mean turn as far as your radar can physically turn to track him (the gimbal limit :) )

 

For the orthogonal roll, sometimes you just have to guess. A way to try and take the guess work out is to be looking in the direction the missile is coming from; as it gets closer, while you are doing your vertical S, it will pull G's and create a visible contrail as it tries to track you. The moment you see this contrail you should go into the ortho-roll.

 

You might not always be able to notice it, so, if you start feeling 'I better start doing something now' ... do something :D

 

For the close-range shot, you should be able to see the missile's smoke trail. In general, judging distance is difficult, so decide how long you can afford to wait, then do it. Sometimes you can wait a little (on a shot from say, 5km) closer, you need to be evasive right away - hopefuly you know the enemy WILL fire at you, so you already have planned how you will evade him and then kick his butt :D

[Alexrey]

I've decided that using padlock will work best for me if I loose SA. :) I have a problem though, and that is that I want to map the missile padlock and the enemy padlock to shift and caps lock respectively. Does anyone know what those actions are called in the input menu and where abouts they are (top of menu page, bottom of menu page?). I hope that what I just said wasn't too confusing. :P

[Alexrey]

Okay NVM I figured out the padlock thing. But I have another question mainly for GGTharos (but others can anwser it if they want to): do you only use the vertical reversals and orthogonal roll to evade missiles, and when you use these maneuvers against SARH missiles what is your success rate for evading them?

[GGTharos]

The vertical reversals are if the missile was shot from far away, so I can bleed its speed. If it's shot from far enough, it'll drop out of the sky before it ever reaches me. Closer, the Orthogonal roll is needed. The closer you are, the less effective it is.

 

I can usually dodge 9 out of 10 SARH that way, but I use other maneuvers also. If I am in a lot of touble, I'll turn tail and run.

Other times, I'll notch, stay in it for a while (it causes the enemy radar lock to drop) and come back out to re-attack. This works better on-line than off-line most of the time.

 

There's many things you can do, these are just the bare basics :)

[Alexrey]

The vertical reversals are if the missile was shot from far away, so I can bleed its speed. If it's shot from far enough, it'll drop out of the sky before it ever reaches me. Closer, the Orthogonal roll is needed. The closer you are, the less effective it is.

 

I can usually dodge 9 out of 10 SARH that way, but I use other maneuvers also. If I am in a lot of touble, I'll turn tail and run.

 

When you say "shot from far enough", how far is that usually? And when you say "Closer, the Orthogonal roll is needed", how close is that?

 

Other times, I'll notch, stay in it for a while (it causes the enemy radar lock to drop) and come back out to re-attack. This works better on-line than off-line most of the time.

 

There's many things you can do, these are just the bare basics :)

 

What does notch mean? :huh: I don't know much LOMAC lingo yet. Like whenever I hear the words maddog, f-pole, a-pole and slammer I go blank.

 

Sorry for all these damn questions, but I just wanna learn all there is to evasive maneuvers! :smilewink: I wanna be able to act calmly and effectively against incoming missiles and think "okay I'm gonna do a [put evasive maneuver here] and that missile won't stand a chance!", instead of the usual "shit, I hope this works... oh **** not again! How the ****?! This is BS, nowai!".

[D-Scythe]

When you say "shot from far enough", how far is that usually? And when you say "Closer, the Orthogonal roll is needed", how close is that?

 

Pretty much by feel - when in doubt, just stick with the orthogonal roll.

 

What does notch mean? :huh: I don't know much LOMAC lingo yet. Like whenever I hear the words maddog, f-pole, a-pole and slammer I go blank.

 

It's not LOMAC lingo, it's what real fighter pilots use too :) Notch is putting your enemy directly on your 3 or 9 o'clock line. Basically, you wanna fly *exactly* side-ways relative to your enemy.

 

F-pole is basically the things you can do to keep the bandit away as far away from you as possible until your missile hits/misses. For example, after you shoot your missile, you can fly a bit off to the side, and because you're no longer flying directly at the target, you reduce the closure rate between you and the target (hence preserving separation/distance between you two). A-pole is the exact same thing, but applies to active radar missiles - only now, you don't have to wait for missile hit or miss, just until the missile goes active.

 

Slammer is a nickname for the American AMRAAM missile.