Numerical Advantage (OT moved out of the R-27ET thread)

[Cosmonaut]

I disagree with this to a point. I have to say that US was not the only country to employ US manufactured aircraft. Israel has donne it and in numerical disavantage. F-15's were bloodied as they came off the crates from the US, a bunch at a time. It didnt so with the sparrow, it did with sidwinders and guns, precisely the migs strongest points.

 

This is exactly what I was talking about and I think D-Scythe summed it up, above, perfectly regarding an unfair fight even though you're out numbered by the enemy at the point of the gun.

 

However extrapolating these first engements to current day would be a deadly mistake, since we came along way from the unreliable BVR missilery from vietnam.

 

ARH are notoriously unreliable but in Vietnam air crews faced the most bizzare ROE you could possibly imagine, one of which was no shooting until you visually identify the enemy ..WTF was that about?

 

Comparing the A-10 record to riducule that of F-15 is a crazy thought. It opens up the doors for all kinds of absurd ideas wich have no place in any serious debate concerning AA aviation.

 

I compared and Riducled nothing, I mearly stated a fact that to prove the supperiority of the F15 in terms of real world engagements is a "fools logic", the Eagle speaks for itself and the marriage of TWS and the aim120 is second to none in any arenea of known modern A2A combat.

[RedTiger]

Hey, just another thought here, along the lines of wanting realism over balance. I want dibs on being the first to say "I told you so" when there is a great wail from the forums of "head-to-head multiplayer is dead" if and when we have several modules with fighters in DCS. :music_whistling: I forsee a mass exodus to either blue vs. blue or red vs. red scenarious, with very little online red vs. blue going on.

 

So, I'm gonna call this one early. Any of you guys betting men? :D

[GGTharos]

Blue v Red scenarios will be just fine if Red is given more airframes, as it should be ;)

Red would also have in principle more GCI, and the airframes need to be used in their proper role and tactics. THEN you have a fight. Yes, the exchange ratios may still favor an F-15, but there now is where you have a SIMULATOR, simulating a REALISTIC SCENARIO vs. a game.

You can also spice things up by creating a restricted scenario, ie. no ARH for F-15 for example. In principle, the exchange ratio should still favor the F-15, but nowhere near as greatly as when armed with AIM-120's.

 

And that's no bet, I ain't taking that :D

[Frostie]

Somewhere out there in a Parallel Universe this exact same argument is ongoing over the Flankers un-presidented 105-0 A2A kill death ratio where it pwnd F-16A's, F-5's and F-4's into submission , pheer the mighty untouchable FLANKER and ER missile supremacy.:)

[Vekkinho]

Blue v Red scenarios will be just fine if Red is given more airframes, as it should be ;)

 

I'm not really sure here, there's more F-16 aircraft in NATO than MiG-29 produced in total!

[*Rage*]

Yawn...another GGT/D-Scythe aneurysm fest vs. the Red propagandist hordes.

 

We all know the facts..Real men support their missiles. In the words of Governor Schwarzeneger...the rest (ET/120) is for 'girly men'

 

Those of you who get irritated by the above statement need to reconsider their life priorities.

[GGTharos]

Thanks for telling us what we should be doing. We'd never get anywhere without you! :D

[GGTharos]

F-16 changes things up a bit though ... the MiG-29 is more of a match, even in the A version :)

 

I'm not really sure here, there's more F-16 aircraft in NATO than MiG-29 produced in total!

[Pilotasso]

Somewhere out there in a Parallel Universe this exact same argument is ongoing over the Flankers un-presidented 105-0 A2A kill death ratio where it pwnd F-16A's, F-5's and F-4's into submission , pheer the mighty untouchable FLANKER and ER missile supremacy.:)

 

In this world however, R-27's have already proved to have failed to hit the same Mig-29A's those F-15/16's faced.

[monotwix]

Yawn...another GGT/D-Scythe aneurysm fest vs. the Red propagandist hordes.

 

We all know the facts..Real men support their missiles. In the words of Governor Schwarzeneger...the rest (ET/120) is for 'girly men'

 

Those of you who get irritated by the above statement need to reconsider their life priorities.

 

Hobby is your life or life is your hobby or any task for that matter plays a part in what people wish to say.

Any discussion requires a specific mind set for it to exist and what have you set your mind on?

[*Rage*]

Hobby is your life or life is your hobby or any task for that matter plays a part in what people wish to say.

Any discussion requires a specific mind set for it to exist and what have you set your mind on?

 

eh?

[RedTiger]

Yawn...another GGT/D-Scythe aneurysm fest vs. the Red propagandist hordes.

 

We all know the facts..Real men support their missiles. In the words of Governor Schwarzeneger...the rest (ET/120) is for 'girly men'

 

Those of you who get irritated by the above statement need to reconsider their life priorities.

 

First off...EL OH F'N EL!!! :megalol: You get a 10/10 for comedic use of hyperbole. :lol: At least I think you were exaggerating... :huh: :P

 

Blue v Red scenarios will be just fine if Red is given more airframes, as it should be ;)

Red would also have in principle more GCI, and the airframes need to be used in their proper role and tactics. THEN you have a fight. Yes, the exchange ratios may still favor an F-15, but there now is where you have a SIMULATOR, simulating a REALISTIC SCENARIO vs. a game.

You can also spice things up by creating a restricted scenario, ie. no ARH for F-15 for example. In principle, the exchange ratio should still favor the F-15, but nowhere near as greatly as when armed with AIM-120's.

 

And that's no bet, I ain't taking that :D

 

Ya but...is the LOMAC populace at large gonna do this type of stuff? Do people allow Red AWACS and GCI now? Will GCI and AWACS ever be manned by actual players (hey now, that'd be cool, there's a thought!)? Thats my point. This "proper role and tactics" business sounds more like a single-player and coop thing:

 

"Sorry guys. Only 4 F-15Cs allowed, and all the slots are filled. Guess you'll have to take one of those 20 MiGs. Try not to freak out when your wingman explodes into a million bits because his SPO didn't warn him about the incoming slammer. Oh, and don't forget to tune your radio to channel 7 so GCI can give you directions on what to engage. Make sure you allow them to move your radar around for you and don't interfere. Immediately return to station when ordered to. Engaging anything that GCI doesn't identify, moving your own radar around, and not returning to station is against server rules and will get you BANNED."

 

How well is all that going to go over? :D

[Pilotasso]

well, this disscussions have always been entertaining but they are fast getting old. We never get anywhere.

[GGTharos]

I think you're exaggerating a bit; yes, the number of slots will be an issue, but don't forget that there will be other aircraft as well - there will be Su-27's and F-16's eventually, making the match more even, albeit you'll still need more red than blue in most cases.

 

In the end, you can do whatever you like with your airframe, and there are scenarios where a well used MiG can achieve parity with western aircraft; in bigger, more focused missions, I think people will just get shamed into doing it right, or out of the mission, and its fine either way - I'm fairly certain you will ALWAYS find persons spirited enough to play the underdog. Perhaps even plenty of them.

 

As for the GCI people, they'll slew your antenna onto a target for you to attack ... but they control you as tightly as some think, I believe.

 

And as for human GCI/AWACS ... the possibility is always there.

[RedTiger]

@Pilotasso

 

Its because nothing changes. We can all come to some agreement on what -should- be different, but we can't make any changes. I feel funny saying that having been here for such short time compared to others.

 

The gap between what LOMAC is and what we think it should be is probably what makes this community so engaging and interesting. Check out the Falcon discussions. Everyone's so enamored with that damn program, and its just so perfect, that all they do is sit around and pat each other on the back. They don't talk about squat.

[*Rage*]

First off...EL OH F'N EL!!! :megalol: You get a 10/10 for comedic use of hyperbole. :lol: At least I think you were exaggerating... :huh: :P

 

 

 

Ya but...is the LOMAC populace at large gonna do this type of stuff? Do people allow Red AWACS and GCI now? Will GCI and AWACS ever be manned by actual players (hey now, that'd be cool, there's a thought!)? Thats my point. This "proper role and tactics" business sounds more like a single-player and coop thing:

 

"Sorry guys. Only 4 F-15Cs allowed, and all the slots are filled. Guess you'll have to take one of those 20 MiGs. Try not to freak out when your wingman explodes into a million bits because his SPO didn't warn him about the incoming slammer. Oh, and don't forget to tune your radio to channel 7 so GCI can give you directions on what to engage. Make sure you allow them to move your radar around for you and don't interfere. Immediately return to station when ordered to. Engaging anything that GCI doesn't identify, moving your own radar around, and not returning to station is against server rules and will get you BANNED."

 

How well is all that going to go over? :D

 

I think you make some very good points. No matter how high the sim fidelity is it will always be flown by individual pilots on HL. Squad vs Squad red flag type exercised are few and far between and do not incorporate the majority of online pilots (let alone off-line pilots)

[GGTharos]

.. Until someone points out to them how Falcon is a game or in other ways doesn't simulate things realistically to some degree, and that person is shouted down or sidelined ... case in point, the recent DC thread :D

[RedTiger]

I think you're exaggerating a bit; yes, the number of slots will be an issue, but don't forget that there will be other aircraft as well - there will be Su-27's and F-16's eventually, making the match more even, albeit you'll still need more red than blue in most cases.

 

In the end, you can do whatever you like with your airframe, and there are scenarios where a well used MiG can achieve parity with western aircraft; in bigger, more focused missions, I think people will just get shamed into doing it right, or out of the mission, and its fine either way - I'm fairly certain you will ALWAYS find persons spirited enough to play the underdog. Perhaps even plenty of them.

 

As for the GCI people, they'll slew your antenna onto a target for you to attack ... but they control you as tightly as some think, I believe.

 

And as for human GCI/AWACS ... the possibility is always there.

 

Yes, I was exaggerating. My point was that there will concessions that will have to be made for the sake of realism. I am pessimistic about people making those concessions. In the end, I really don't care! It won't affect my enjoyment really.

[GGTharos]

I suspect there may simply be servers with 'easy settings' or something popping us for those who don't want to deal with other things. :)

 

In the end it will be up to the mission designer to provide an interesting scenario. I think a MiG player would probably not try to play a mission where he's flying a 29A over flat terrain vs. F-15's too much, just as an example.

 

Edit: Can't really rep you yet RT :D

[Pilotasso]

@Pilotasso

 

Its because nothing changes. We can all come to some agreement on what -should- be different, but we can't make any changes. I feel funny saying that having been here for such short time compared to others.

 

The gap between what LOMAC is and what we think it should be is probably what makes this community so engaging and interesting. Check out the Falcon discussions. Everyone's so enamored with that damn program, and its just so perfect, that all they do is sit around and pat each other on the back. They don't talk about squat.

 

Touchee

 

BTW I cant rep you anymore. :)

[monotwix]

How does the human AWACS work I mean how is it possible?

[GGTharos]

I suggest doing a search for LOTATC on this forum, for an example answer to that question :)

[monotwix]

I think I've got the idea now.

Thanks.

[Cosmonaut]

I think you're exaggerating a bit; yes, the number of slots will be an issue, but don't forget that there will be other aircraft as well - there will be Su-27's and F-16's eventually, making the match more even, albeit you'll still need more red than blue in most cases.

 

In the end, you can do whatever you like with your airframe, and there are scenarios where a well used MiG can achieve parity with western aircraft; in bigger, more focused missions, I think people will just get shamed into doing it right, or out of the mission, and its fine either way - I'm fairly certain you will ALWAYS find persons spirited enough to play the underdog. Perhaps even plenty of them.

 

As for the GCI people, they'll slew your antenna onto a target for you to attack ... but they control you as tightly as some think, I believe.

 

And as for human GCI/AWACS ... the possibility is always there.

 

This is a better topic for debate although as I type this I can't remember what this thread is actually about ;).. Anyway I don't think the F15 will be so superior in game/sim that it will require any special treatment in regards to needing more red players than blue has missiles :D . IRL it maybe difficult to beat the force multiplier capability of the F15 but in an online game? I don't think it will play out the same way, players will find a successful tactic to even things out. Also there's the mission itself and what the mission editor will allow us to do, in terms of assigning mission goals etc, this can also the affect the superiority of a fighter although we'll have to wait and see how all this plays out, but I'm not worried about eagle dominating crane. :pilotfly:

[Vekkinho]

I disagree with this to a point. I have to say that US was not the only country to employ US manufactured aircraft. Israel has donne it and in numerical disavantage. F-15's were bloodied as they came off the crates from the US, a bunch at a time. It didnt so with the sparrow, it did with sidwinders and guns, precisely the migs strongest points.

 

However extrapolating these first engements to current day would be a deadly mistake, since we came along way from the unreliable BVR missilery from vietnam.

 

Comparing the A-10 record to riducule that of F-15 is a crazy thought. It opens up the doors for all kinds of absurd ideas wich have no place in any serious debate concerning AA aviation.

 

Israel might be a good example of Eagle's superiority but it stood up against early MiG-21 versions, a plane that was turning obsolete even in early '80s. F-15 were brought from US to counter Soviet MiG-25 and 25R that operated in the area and were piloted by Soviet pilots but hasn't scored any Foxbat kills at that time!

 

Iraqi MiG-29, MiG-23 and Mirage F1 fleet during Dester Storm was in poor condition, believe me as I saw Iraqi MiG-23 that arrived to ZMAJ Zagreb in 1990 for major overhaul. Those planes never returned to Iraq as the war broke out in both Iraq and Yugoslavia. Experience of Iraqi pilots was lame (I remember F1 and Fulcrum driver's CFIT from Dogfights show). Credit goes to F-15C pilots, but in fact... Iraqi AF was capable of military show flyby showing of Iraqi might and dusting people's eyes but combat capability was questionable.

 

Allied Force was another story, YUAF had 14 Fulcrums in total (12*9-12A & 2*9-51). Planes were bought from USSR in 1987, war in these regions broke out in 1991, Fulcrums were reallocated from Slovania, Croatia and BiH to Batajnica and Slatina AB, embargo struck, no spares, no flights, no personell for complete 9 years. Yugoslav pilots did take off against NATO planes but MiGs never operated in pairs simply because there was no airworthy airframes to make a pair. Single Red Fulcrum against 100+ Blue (NATO) aircraft. Perhaps realistic scenario would be twice as many Red fighters in air combat but in fact...

 

Edit:

The name of entire operation (Allied Force) perhaps suggests 12*F-15C from USAF, but 60+ Falcons (dutch, USAF, Italian, Norwegian) 60+ F/A-18 (USMC and Navy, Spain) British F3 Tornados so entire NATO fighter fleet easily piles up to 100+

 

So perfect scenario for online LOFC would favor Blue side and HUD, autopilot, radar, MFD, hydro, failures enabled for Red flights, IMHO!

 

Sorry for OT reply, but I had to take us there because of RL comparison!