nscode Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 I also apologize, and there really is a good agricultural fair here :D @Pilotasso: at the moment when Milenko Pavlovic was shut down, the numbers were 70+:1, at that moment. That is how it was. I really don't care what types those 70 were. Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us.
Geier Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 D-Scythe I've read your post about Mike Showers story. Very interesting, thx. It does not match my figures though I found them in official RuAF magazine. As for ratio data I don't believe US claims at 100%. Why? I'm based on the Korean War when USAF overclaime became unbelievable! RU official data of 64 Air Corp: 651+181 F86 downed by Ru + Chinese American Data - only 103 !!! Do you really think that situation changed? I hope so, but... 1
X-man Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 RU official data of 64 Air Corp: 651+181 F86 downed by Ru + Chinese American Data - only 103 !!! Do you really think that situation changed? I hope so, but.. Both sides are both spreading their propaganda. Standard in all wars ;) 1 64th Aggressor Squadron Discord: 64th Aggressor Squadron TS: 135.181.115.54
Pilotasso Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 I also apologize, and there really is a good agricultural fair here :D @Pilotasso: at the moment when Milenko Pavlovic was shut down, the numbers were 70+:1, at that moment. That is how it was. I really don't care what types those 70 were. Doesnt matter, even if there was only 1 NATO plane up there. Those migs were not combat worthy. You cant expect miracles from that. Both sides are both spreading their propaganda. Standard in all wars ;) There was a difference though. Lots of news reporters in the ground that did not belong to any beligerant side involved. I didnt watch the war by CNN, infact I watched little from that channel. I believe I saw many reports from all over europe including eastern and central europe countries not to mention asian networks, even serb material got through. .
nscode Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 Yes, especially in this case (failed generators => nothing works), and that is why it can not be used in any superiority/inferiority argument. Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us.
X-man Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 There was a difference though. Lots of news reporters in the ground that did not belong to any beligerant side involved. I didnt watch the war by CNN, infact I watched little from that channel. I believe I saw many reports from all over europe including eastern and central europe countries not to mention asian networks, even serb material got through. I was talking about the Korean stuff :P 64th Aggressor Squadron Discord: 64th Aggressor Squadron TS: 135.181.115.54
Pilotasso Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 Yes, especially in this case (failed generators => nothing works), and that is why it can not be used in any superiority/inferiority argument. You are right but the oppososite argument seems to be finding its way to the forum constantly. Everytime we speak mig, ET or AMRAAM this conflict comes up. .
GGTharos Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 No, SPECIFIC CASES come up. At least for some of us. Then certain people jump in about how it was all unfair. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
nscode Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 I will never say it was unfair (it was, but that is not the topic of discussions here, and war isn't about fairness, anyway). All I say is this: Base your overconfidence on the results of that conflict, and you will end up dead. Simple as that. Fortunately, as Rhen said, real pilots are not dumb like that. Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us.
tflash Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 I do not think the numerical advantage argument saves the Mig's record. When a weapons system fails, don't look for excuses, just build a better one. There seems nothing wrong with the Flanker to me, and Mig-35 sounds promising. When an F-117 was shot down while it wasn't supposed to, we heard lengthy arguments about how this was a freak accident due to a lot of misunderstandings. Today, the F-117 has been quietly retired, without any doubt for all the good reasons. Better stealth aircraft have been built. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
GGTharos Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 I didn't say it was you ;) I base my opinion of the function of CERTAIN SYSTEMS on pilot interviews from this conflict and others ;) I will never say it was unfair (it was, but that is not the topic of discussions here, and war isn't about fairness, anyway). All I say is this: Base your overconfidence on the results of that conflict, and you will end up dead. Simple as that. Fortunately, as Rhen said, real pilots are not dumb like that. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
nscode Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 I didn't say you said it was me I do not think the numerical advantage argument saves the Mig's record. When a weapons system fails, don't look for excuses, just build a better one. And better ones have been built, like the ones you mention. May I remind you that the Yugoslav MiGs were from amongst the oldest production batches. When Russian staff came here for the recent repairs and upgrades, they were surprised to see systems that they haven't seen in years (or some of the younger ones - never). Add to that the 10 years without maintenance and that means that you can't evaluate even the quality of those. The only conclusion you can draw is that yes, the amraam IS capable of hitting a (somewhat) maneuvering target. (and that is very valuable info) Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us.
Vekkinho Posted June 3, 2008 Posted June 3, 2008 Yeah, that was my first question when Serbian airforce launched MiG-29 duing the Allied Force, especially after watching "Let u smrt" documentary! If you know U don't have combat worthy airframes you don't send pilots to die just like that! But again, Serbia lost 4 or 5 MiGs in BVR or other air combat mode. None of these MiGs endangered NATO's planes, there has been a rumour that one of the MiGs scrambled on the first night managed to launch a "small" missile (stated by a pilot who did it). By "small" he probably means R-60 or R-73 aiming for a flight of Tornados. Pilot managed to eject as he was hit moments after the "Small" launch so he never saw the results of his offensive action. I can't remember the name of that particular pilot but I'm pretty sure NSCode can! What I'm trying to say is that if weren't launched and lost in combat those MiG-29s would surely suffer destruction in some HAS or being hidden in the bushes. This way, although not capable of proper A2A role MiGs surely prevented some of the strike planes of reaching the target. I'm just not happy with the methods of engagement, especially in the case of Milenko Pavlovic, remember he was chasing planes that already fulfilled their primary objectives (destruction of factories in Valjevo) and were egressing westbound into Bosnian airspace. He must have known he cannot intercept any of those flights and his death could surely be avoided! Kicking your own chair just because U can! That was the last MiG-29 sortie (4 airframes lost, 1 damaged beyond repair) in Allied Force but does the pilot have to die to prove something was rotten from the 1st day?! Noone goes swimming with sharks, except Steve Irwin! But take a look at his faith! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
4c Hajduk Veljko Posted June 4, 2008 Author Posted June 4, 2008 I never said it was unfair fight either. Thermaltake Kandalf LCS | Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R | Etasis ET750 (850W Max) | i7-920 OC to 4.0 GHz | Gigabyte HD5850 | OCZ Gold 6GB DDR3 2000 | 2 X 30GB OCZ Vertex SSD in RAID 0 | ASUS VW266H 25.5" | LG Blue Ray 10X burner | TIR 5 | Saitek X-52 Pro | Logitech G930 | Saitek Pro flight rudder pedals | Windows 7 Home Premium 64 bit
nscode Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 No, I don't know who it was, and I never heard that he specified it was a small missile. Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us.
tflash Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 My feeling is and was that these pilots deserve our respect. That's beyond the debate here, which focuses on whether the numerical advantage argument dismisses this conflict as a way to assess the Mig-29 performance or not. I would still think that the problems experienced in the conflict corroborate what has been learned from the German Mig-29's: - poor servicability - avionics unfit for BVR engagements - very short combat radius - limited payload - smoking engines - demanding to fly On the positive side: - performance - aerodynamics - HMS + Archer My guess a credible match for a late eighties Belgian F-16 with only AIM-9F, limited RWR and ECM, or a late eighties German Phantom, but certainly nothing in the F-15 league. Is there anything more to say about this well-known and now aging aircraft? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
nscode Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 Yes, it's a more than credible mid eighties match for any late eighties aircraft :) Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us.
RedTiger Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 Is there anything more to say about this well-known and now aging aircraft? Yes. I think that the payload of a MiG-29A speaks volumns about it and supports your assesment of it. Two radar guided missiles and four off-bore heaters. I look at that and it seems obvious what the designers were thinking. It looks like they're looking at the performance of their previous SARH missiles as well as the performance of the Sparrow in Vietnam and saying "well, SARH missiles are the optimal way to take out your opponent -- BVR. But we don't think they are very reliable. So, we'll bet that for a small, point defense fighter 2 will be adequate and whatever gets through a volley of SARHs will have to deal with a very manueverable fighter wielding four off-bore heaters."
Geier Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 Yeah, that was my first question when Serbian airforce launched MiG-29 duing the Allied Force, especially after watching "Let u smrt" documentary! If you know U don't have combat worthy airframes you don't send pilots to die just like that! But again, Serbia lost 4 or 5 MiGs in BVR or other air combat mode. None of these MiGs endangered NATO's planes, there has been a rumour that one of the MiGs scrambled on the first night managed to launch a "small" missile (stated by a pilot who did it). By "small" he probably means R-60 or R-73 aiming for a flight of Tornados. Pilot managed to eject as he was hit moments after the "Small" launch so he never saw the results of his offensive action. I can't remember the name of that particular pilot but I'm pretty sure NSCode can! According to my data it was Slobodan Perich, flying Mig21. he was downed after his kill by Dutch F16AM. He ejected safely.
Vekkinho Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 Russian way of weapon delivery was always in some "In Your face!" manner! That's why you have 30 mm cannons, common practice in VVS was to fill your HUD with bandits and press a trigger! I'm surprised I see no axe hanging from outer pylons! There was a bicycle though! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
GGTharos Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 Actually their philosophy was to swarm you and sneak in an unobserved shooter who could attack your aircraft close up. So I guess it was partly 'in your face'. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
nscode Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 Part in the face and part in the a... :D @Geier: no MiG-21 combat flights during the conflict. Never forget that World War III was not Cold for most of us.
Vekkinho Posted June 4, 2008 Posted June 4, 2008 According to my data it was Slobodan Perich, flying Mig21. he was downed after his kill by Dutch F16AM. He ejected safely. Like NSCode said, all Fishbeds were grounded at the time but the pilot I was talking about is Major Nebojsa Nikolic. Check this site: http://dragan.freeservers.com/agresija/heroes.htm Quote from that page about numerical advantage and weapon delivery philosophy: Knights in combat First Yugoslav planes in the air were "Knights" from 127 LAE with their MiG-29 (only unit operating them). Based on publicly released data one could conclude that three MiG's were scrambled from Batajnica, near Belgrade with Potpukovnik (Lieutenant Colonel) Ljubiša Kulačina, Major Nebojša Nikolić and Major Milorad Milutinović in cockpit and two (Potpukovnik Dragan Ilić, Major Aljo Arizanov) from Nis airport. Since Germany had the same type of MiG-29 for a decade NATO was expected to be successful in jamming radar and communication with GC center. Bearing that in mind and the fact of great numbers of enemy aircraft in the air backed by 4 AWACS Yugoslav pilots applied new tactics. They abandoned usual leader-wingman formations and used fast solo dashes near ground to stay out of sight and than, when close enough to fire R-73 (AA-11), vertical climb trying to get firing solution with KOLS laser - IR rangefinder/homing system . [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
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