Hot aspect F-14A/B using Jammer + chaff is enough to spoof AIM-7M/MH, R-27R, AIM-120BC and SD-10 WVR

[SgtPappy]

Posted a few threads first about AIM-7's then realized it appears that the F-14A/B jammer may not be working as intended in combination with the missiles in the title.

 

The AIM-7M/MH, R-27R, AIM-120BC and SD-10 can be spoofed WVR by a hot F-14A/B that only cranks side to side to keep the attacker within gimbal limits provided it is dropping chaff and has the jammer on.

 

Strangely, the R-27ER and R-77 are unaffected by this tactic. I tested the AIM-7MH and AIM-120C online with a friend flying the F/A-18 and the F-15 and results were consistent although the AIM-120C went ballistic about 9/10 times, the AIM-7MH went ballistic 100% of the time. The rest of the missiles I tested offline vs. AI. 

 

Sorry to be posting similar topics but I think this time, I have the right conclusion. Can someone please confirm this is the same case for them?

ALQ-126 with chaff overpowering AMRAAMs and AIM-7s - Tacview-20201230-222208-DCS-BFM_ACM_Clinic_BVR.zip.acmi F-14B jammer off and chaff vs AIM-7 Tacview-20201229-180805-DCS-missile test - Syria.zip.acmi F-14B jammer on and chaff vs AIM-7 - Tacview-20201229-180638-DCS-missile test - Syria.zip.acmi

Edited January 1, 2021 by SgtPappy

[SgtPappy]

A little bit of a bump - but also I wanted to post another video. I think it's more missile-related than F-14-related as it affects only some weapons.

 

Here's a WVR dogfight showing the AIM-120C intermittently losing and tracking an F-14 (apologies there's a bit of good ol' gamer swearing, but nothing too bad): More F-14 jammer vs AIM-120C shenanigans

Edited January 3, 2021 by SgtPappy

[Tango3B]

7 hours ago, SgtPappy said:

A little bit of a bump - but also I wanted to post another video. I think it's more missile-related than F-14-related as it affects only some weapons.

 

Here's a WVR dogfight showing the AIM-120C intermittently losing and tracking an F-14 (apologies there's a bit of good ol' gamer swearing, but nothing too bad): More F-14 jammer vs AIM-120C shenanigans

 

 

Yesterday evening I flew some sorties on GS's Open Conflict server and I can confirm your observations. And I also think it is related to the AMRAAM/SD-10 updates that came with the recent patch and that this is not a Tomcat bug. I had a situation where I was flying an F-16 and I was 2.5nm behind a slow, non-maneuvering but jamming Tomcat and fired 3 Aim-120Cs at it. Every missile did really weird maneuvers and in the end they were unable to intercept the Tomcat. I was literally fuming. Later on, I had a similar situation with the JF-17/SD-10 combination. Same thing happened. I did not run into any problems using other missile types against Tomcats, though. So, I strongly suspect it has to do with something that got broken with the Aim-120's/SD-10's guidance/tracking logic last patch. Another recent observation is that "my" Aim-120Cs seem to have problems tracking targets or guiding to them properly. All shots were supported till active and in correct parameters but the hit rate is abysmal even against guys that don't know how to defend properly. I don't know if this is a server sided problem or a general AMRAAM bug, though.

[Shadow KT]

Well... what's different in the Tomcat ECM that none of the other FC aircraft's ECM cause this ?

I guess that is what the missile will do, if it gets jammed, as it is trying to intercept a target, which it sees flying all over the place. Seems like the F-14 has something, which other aircraft don't have... sooo, it is kinda an F-14 issues as well

[Tango3B]

50 minutes ago, Shadow KT said:

Well... what's different in the Tomcat ECM that none of the other FC aircraft's ECM cause this ?

I guess that is what the missile will do, if it gets jammed, as it is trying to intercept a target, which it sees flying all over the place. Seems like the F-14 has something, which other aircraft don't have... sooo, it is kinda an F-14 issues as well

Well, I just tested this against the M2000 & F-15 in PvP and the same thing happens. And I would absolutely agree with you on the jamming effects if I didn't know that in DCS jamming is modelled rather basic and unless this hasn't changed recently it shouldn't really have any effect on an Aim-120 fired from close range. And then there is HOJ, of course. I guess, I need to try to get some useful trackfiles to showcase...

 

 

[SgtPappy]

5 hours ago, Tango3B said:

 

Yesterday evening I flew some sorties on GS's Open Conflict server and I can confirm your observations. And I also think it is related to the AMRAAM/SD-10 updates that came with the recent patch and that this is not a Tomcat bug. I had a situation where I was flying an F-16 and I was 2.5nm behind a slow, non-maneuvering but jamming Tomcat and fired 3 Aim-120Cs at it. Every missile did really weird maneuvers and in the end they were unable to intercept the Tomcat. I was literally fuming. Later on, I had a similar situation with the JF-17/SD-10 combination. Same thing happened. I did not run into any problems using other missile types against Tomcats, though. So, I strongly suspect it has to do with something that got broken with the Aim-120's/SD-10's guidance/tracking logic last patch. Another recent observation is that "my" Aim-120Cs seem to have problems tracking targets or guiding to them properly. All shots were supported till active and in correct parameters but the hit rate is abysmal even against guys that don't know how to defend properly. I don't know if this is a server sided problem or a general AMRAAM bug, though.

This makes sense since the AIM-7 also has a similar upgrade. I remember the AIM-54s also having API updates about 4 or 5 patches ago but I didn't test those but I suspect the same issue will present itself.

 

The R-27ER and R-77 I suppose don't have any API upgrades but the R-27R had some improvements when the AIM-7 got new API which might explain the disparity. 

 

As for the jamming in the F-14, I confirmed with HB that they modeled it simply to blink so as to break lock when you try to HOJ to make it more involved than just a simple "always on" strobe. They stated that the jamming would therefore be ignored when you burn through the jamming. I do not believe it was their intent to have some missiles completely break once you reach this burn-through range.

Edited January 3, 2021 by SgtPappy

[Csgo GE oh yeah]

And of course the F14's own aim54 is NOT affected ? 
LoL  you gotta be kiding me ... 

[dundun92]

33 minutes ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

And of course the F14's own aim54 is NOT affected ? 
LoL  you gotta be kiding me ... 

can you like give up the anti HB bias? If you looked a few threads down you would have realized that, 1 it isnt an F-14 bug but an ECM bug concerning any plane with blinkable ECM, and 2, its not just the AIM-54 unnafected, any missile on the old API (S530, R-27ER, R-77, etc) are not affected. This is an ED problem with ECM.