ED Team Chizh Posted June 26, 2008 Author ED Team Posted June 26, 2008 That's the CH-53 you've linked to, not the CH-47 What about SH-53? Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу
Yellonet Posted June 26, 2008 Posted June 26, 2008 Not 100% because its not verified by a official source. But all the webpages on the internet dont say anything about countermeasures on this plane. Some even say : countermeasures - no flare / haff dispensers. Here is a walkaround: http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/AWA1/001-100/walk056_E2C/part2/walk056b.htm Here's another walkaround, couldn't spot any dispensers... http://daytonipms.com/Walks/E-2C/grumman_e.htm i7-2600k@4GHz, 8GB, R9 280X 3GB, SSD, HOTAS WH, Pro Flight Combat Pedals, TIR5
AlphaOneSix Posted June 26, 2008 Posted June 26, 2008 During my entire time involved with the AH-64 (which lasted through 1995), no AH-64A ever carried two M130 dispensers. Only a single dispenser was mounted on the left side of the tailboom. Additionally, even in combat (Desert Storm), we did not carry flares. The dispenser carried 30 chaff cartridges. At the time, the "Black Hole" engine exhaust suppressors and the ALQ-144 were determined to be sufficient to counter all IR threats. It wasn't until several years later that modification were made to upgrade the AH-64's IR threat detection and countermeasures systems.
ED Team Groove Posted June 26, 2008 ED Team Posted June 26, 2008 Is it mistake? Each AN/ALE-39 contain 30 charges. No? Yes, its a mistake. Its 30 cartridges per dispenser, sorry. Our Forum Rules: http://forums.eagle.ru/rules.php#en
Yellonet Posted June 26, 2008 Posted June 26, 2008 (edited) UH-60A "Defensive equipment includes the AN/APR-39 radar warn*ing receiver, AN/ALQ-144 IR-missile jammer, and twin M130 flare/chaff dispensers. The dispensers can be loaded with M206 flares and RR-170 chaff bundles." Source: http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=4872 The M130 dispenser can be loaded with 30 flares or chaff cartriges, seems as you can mix anyway you want. UPDATE, found this source: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/m-130.htm that indicates that the dispenser can only be loaded with either flares or chaff, i.e. no mixing. "The capability to dispense both flare and chaff decoys can be achieved by adding a second dispenser assembly and payload module assembly to the aircraft." Source: http://tri.army.mil/lc/cs/Csa/apm130.htm I Can't find any info on typical loadout. But there's apparently only three possibilities. 30 flares and 30 chaff or 60 flares or 60 chaff. Edited June 26, 2008 by Yellonet i7-2600k@4GHz, 8GB, R9 280X 3GB, SSD, HOTAS WH, Pro Flight Combat Pedals, TIR5
mvsgas Posted June 27, 2008 Posted June 27, 2008 (edited) F-16 only got 4 (block 10 to 52 , USAF,IIRC) I was talking with the guy at work and this is wrong. The F-16A/B only have 2 chaff and flare dispensers. I do not know how to edit photos but, you can see the dispenser just inboard of horizontal stab leading edge, on the strakes. F-16 C/D (block 25 and above) have 4. All F-16 are able to carry more container on weapons pylons but, never or rarely seen in USAF F-16. Also some other countries have different set up. I'm not sure about those F-16, only USAF ones. Sorry for the bad info.:doh: Edited June 27, 2008 by mvsgas To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
Vekkinho Posted June 27, 2008 Posted June 27, 2008 Programming EWS is a complex thing to do, Falcon pilots use DTC for storing general setup of EWS programmes (6 in total in Auto or MAN mode), radio channels, MFD menus etc. I hope we'll be able to program various Ch/Fl sequencing and burst modes in DCS! So it's really hard to say what would happen if U engage Falcon with pair of R-27R. In LOFC this was pretty scripted, AI defensive beam is always performed with a left break, placing the incoming missile on AI's 3 o'clock. This was so predictable and chaff catridges always shoot in pairs. If there's a possibility for AI driven planes to use different Chaff & Flare modes depending on the situation and quantity of incoming missiles this would be sooo much better and life like! Another thing that spoiled the party in LOFC is continous "radar on" throughout the flight of AI fighters. I don't use radar unless I'm sure I'll fox some SARH! I usually request picture from AWACS which leads me to a target of interest just like real life GCI would! Shame there's no GCI commands in LOFC, I hope it's fixed in DCS! Same goes to constant ECM use with AI planes! Stealthiness was pretty compromised. Hope for some fixing in DCS! Cheers! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Vekkinho Posted June 27, 2008 Posted June 27, 2008 I hope my post wasn't taken as a OT nag! I was trying to advise better usage of decoys in DCS compared to LOFC! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
ED Team Chizh Posted June 27, 2008 Author ED Team Posted June 27, 2008 UH-60A "Defensive equipment includes the AN/APR-39 radar warn*ing receiver, AN/ALQ-144 IR-missile jammer, and twin M130 flare/chaff dispensers. The dispensers can be loaded with M206 flares and RR-170 chaff bundles." Source: http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=4872 The M130 dispenser can be loaded with 30 flares or chaff cartriges, seems as you can mix anyway you want. UPDATE, found this source: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/m-130.htm that indicates that the dispenser can only be loaded with either flares or chaff, i.e. no mixing. "The capability to dispense both flare and chaff decoys can be achieved by adding a second dispenser assembly and payload module assembly to the aircraft." Source: http://tri.army.mil/lc/cs/Csa/apm130.htm I Can't find any info on typical loadout. But there's apparently only three possibilities. 30 flares and 30 chaff or 60 flares or 60 chaff. Thanks. Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу
GGTharos Posted June 27, 2008 Posted June 27, 2008 (edited) Yes, but remember that the AH-64 carries a disco-ball (IR Jammer). The only Ah-64 that I have seen a video of taking an IR missile hit, took it in the face - an angle which occludes the disco ball. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/an-alq-144.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALQ-144 Thanks. Incomprehensible fact. IMHO, one of main threats for helicopters is IR manpads. Edited June 27, 2008 by GGTharos [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Yellonet Posted June 27, 2008 Posted June 27, 2008 (edited) I hope we'll be able to program various Ch/Fl sequencing and burst modes in DCS!I think I read a while ago that the Ka-50 had that ability and that it would be included in the simulation. Here it is... For the programming of countermeasure dispensers, the UV-26 control panel is used. Depending on the type of threat, the pilot can set the appropriate dispenser program for expending chaff and/or flares. The pilot can determine the number of flares to dispense in the volley, the time between each flare, and the time between volleys. Using the control panel it is possible to select with dispenser to use (left or right) and when to start or stop the dispensing program. I think it maybe a typo since Ka-50 only has flares. (including 4 signal flares) Edited June 27, 2008 by Yellonet 1 i7-2600k@4GHz, 8GB, R9 280X 3GB, SSD, HOTAS WH, Pro Flight Combat Pedals, TIR5
Vekkinho Posted June 27, 2008 Posted June 27, 2008 I think I read a while ago that the Ka-50 had that ability and that it would be included in the simulation. I know of Ka-50, but what's with other planes, especially AI driven ones?! Will these planes be able to use various countermeasure programs?! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Yellonet Posted June 27, 2008 Posted June 27, 2008 I know of Ka-50, but what's with other planes, especially AI driven ones?! Will these planes be able to use various countermeasure programs?!Maybe there could be some set countermeasure programs that the AI will use according to some function that accounts for what what the AI "know" of the situation. But these things will probably have to wait until some fixed wing module, at least for other craft than the Ka-50. i7-2600k@4GHz, 8GB, R9 280X 3GB, SSD, HOTAS WH, Pro Flight Combat Pedals, TIR5
Yellonet Posted June 27, 2008 Posted June 27, 2008 CH-53E Many sources say that the CH-53E uses the AN/ALE-39 system which can use up to 60 countermeasure charges. (max amount?) Source: http://www.nawcwd.navy.mil/ewssa/prod_srv/systems/ale39.htm I've also read that there was/is a program for replacing the ALE-39 with the ALE-47 but the dispenser for that system also has 30 charges per dispenser so that shouldn't make any difference. In the images in the link below you can see something that looks like dispensers on both sides just over where the back door is attached. Not sure it's dispensers though... http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/gert_burkert_opitz/ch-53e_photos.htm The Super Stallion does use both chaff and Flares, so I guess it's 30 of each. Source: http://www.guncopter.com/ch-53e/ i7-2600k@4GHz, 8GB, R9 280X 3GB, SSD, HOTAS WH, Pro Flight Combat Pedals, TIR5
ED Team Chizh Posted June 29, 2008 Author ED Team Posted June 29, 2008 CH-53E Many sources say that the CH-53E uses the AN/ALE-39 system which can use up to 60 countermeasure charges. (max amount?) Source: http://www.nawcwd.navy.mil/ewssa/prod_srv/systems/ale39.htm I've also read that there was/is a program for replacing the ALE-39 with the ALE-47 but the dispenser for that system also has 30 charges per dispenser so that shouldn't make any difference. In the images in the link below you can see something that looks like dispensers on both sides just over where the back door is attached. Not sure it's dispensers though... http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/gert_burkert_opitz/ch-53e_photos.htm The Super Stallion does use both chaff and Flares, so I guess it's 30 of each. Source: http://www.guncopter.com/ch-53e/ Thanks. For CH-53 consider 60 chaffs and 60 flares. Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу
ED Team Chizh Posted June 29, 2008 Author ED Team Posted June 29, 2008 Remains C-130 C-17A E-3A KC-10A SH-3W SH-60B UH-60A Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу
Vekkinho Posted June 29, 2008 Posted June 29, 2008 I'm glad you ED guys ask things like this, as You can see we're always eager to help! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
mvsgas Posted June 29, 2008 Posted June 29, 2008 (edited) :smartass::D I can not count that fast but here it shows how many flares C-130 can carry. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJv8VZC1UVo&feature=related Edited June 29, 2008 by mvsgas To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
VMFA117_Poko Posted June 29, 2008 Posted June 29, 2008 (edited) Maybe this will make easier for us to look for exact data: http://www.designation-systems.net/usmilav/jetds/an-ala2aln.html#_ALE ---> we get ejectors names here to start looking for numbers of bundles. SH-3 (Is same on W version? Really don't know) - AN/ALE-43 Chaff Cutter & Dispenser Pod; manufactured by Alliant Defense Electronics SH-3H - AN/ALE-37 Dispenser & Expanded Chaff Adapter (ECA) MH-60, HH-60 - AN/ALE-47 TACDS (Threat Adaptive Countermeasures Dispenser System) Chaff & Flare Dispenser; manufactured by Marconi C-130H AN/ALE-40 ACMDS - The chaff and flare dispensers of the updated AN/ALE-40 ACMDS are installed in four pairs under the aircraft’s nose and in the aft end of the main landing gear fairings (yellow circles). AN/ALE-40 example mounted on NF-5A The flare block has 6x3 loads, the chaff 10x3 loads The C-17 is equipped with Tracor AN/ALE-47 countermeasure flare dispensers and the Lockheed Martin/ Alliant Techsystems AN/AAR-47 missile warning system. AN/ALE-47 - 15 flares or 30 chaffs stored in every magazine. Dimmensions (mm) 570x550x1960. Edited June 29, 2008 by Poko24
ED Team Coyote Posted June 29, 2008 ED Team Posted June 29, 2008 UH-60A На первом фото стандартная кассета ЛТЦ для UH-60. Кол-во 30 шт. На американском варианте вертолета, такая кассета одна, с левого борта. Отстрел вверх-назад. На остальных фото мы видим израильский вариант. Видно что крепление блоков ЛТЦ на балке по правому и левому борту. Кол-во 2х30 на каждый борт, итого 120 шт. отстрел в стороны. Еще видно есть какие-то гнезда, для крепления каких-то блоков, в районе кабины. Что там, можно только предпологать, либо ЛТЦ, либо сигнальные ракеты. В турецком варианте, ЛТЦ столько же, сколько на американском, 30 шт. Я принимаю модели, а вы мучаетесь, но у вас растет мастерство!!!:book: [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
ED Team Coyote Posted June 29, 2008 ED Team Posted June 29, 2008 SH-60B На первых двух фото видно места крепления блоков, на третьем фото видно что блоки стоят, но не понятно сколько их там. Либо 1х30 на борт, либо 2х30 на борт. Итого, либо 60 шт., либо 120 шт. Я принимаю модели, а вы мучаетесь, но у вас растет мастерство!!!:book: [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Vekkinho Posted June 29, 2008 Posted June 29, 2008 ^^^^^^ This means different variants = different dispensers and countermeasure quantities. Is it possible to create various countermeasure quantities depending on the side (country) without drastically changing 3d model?! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
ED Team Chizh Posted June 30, 2008 Author ED Team Posted June 30, 2008 Maybe this will make easier for us to look for exact data: http://www.designation-systems.net/usmilav/jetds/an-ala2aln.html#_ALE ---> we get ejectors names here to start looking for numbers of bundles. SH-3 (Is same on W version? Really don't know) - AN/ALE-43 Chaff Cutter & Dispenser Pod; manufactured by Alliant Defense Electronics SH-3H - AN/ALE-37 Dispenser & Expanded Chaff Adapter (ECA) MH-60, HH-60 - AN/ALE-47 TACDS (Threat Adaptive Countermeasures Dispenser System) Chaff & Flare Dispenser; manufactured by Marconi C-130H AN/ALE-40 ACMDS - The chaff and flare dispensers of the updated AN/ALE-40 ACMDS are installed in four pairs under the aircraft’s nose and in the aft end of the main landing gear fairings (yellow circles). AN/ALE-40 example mounted on NF-5A The flare block has 6x3 loads, the chaff 10x3 loads The C-17 is equipped with Tracor AN/ALE-47 countermeasure flare dispensers and the Lockheed Martin/ Alliant Techsystems AN/AAR-47 missile warning system. AN/ALE-47 - 15 flares or 30 chaffs stored in every magazine. Dimmensions (mm) 570x550x1960. Thanks. Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу
ED Team Chizh Posted June 30, 2008 Author ED Team Posted June 30, 2008 На первом фото стандартная кассета ЛТЦ для UH-60. Кол-во 30 шт. На американском варианте вертолета, такая кассета одна, с левого борта. Отстрел вверх-назад. На остальных фото мы видим израильский вариант. Видно что крепление блоков ЛТЦ на балке по правому и левому борту. Кол-во 2х30 на каждый борт, итого 120 шт. отстрел в стороны. Еще видно есть какие-то гнезда, для крепления каких-то блоков, в районе кабины. Что там, можно только предпологать, либо ЛТЦ, либо сигнальные ракеты. В турецком варианте, ЛТЦ столько же, сколько на американском, 30 шт. На первых двух фото видно места крепления блоков, на третьем фото видно что блоки стоят, но не понятно сколько их там. Либо 1х30 на борт, либо 2х30 на борт. Итого, либо 60 шт., либо 120 шт. Спасибо. Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу
Guest molnibalage Posted October 27, 2008 Posted October 27, 2008 Here is my list as I know. - 3 x 80 on F-15C - Sum. 240 on A-10A - 2 x 30 on MiG-23MLD and MiG-27 - 3 x 32 on every Su-27 family member - 2 x 24 (!) on Su-24. (Don't forget this was the first russian AC that designed with rocket launch detection system. The black domes on upper and bottom part of fuselage. ) Interesting thing the some AC setting match with my knowledge. For. ex Mig-29A, Su-17 and F-16A are good.
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