Dark_Sceptre Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 That would be cool but I think it'd get old real quick. I'd rather see virtual hand operating the dials and switches when I hit the keyboard. You should try a sim that implements this before jumping to that particular conclusion, my friend ;) The fact is that the avionics modeled in Lock On today are highly simplified compared to the real thing, but an okay promise given that the planes included are somewhat simple in design to begin with. However, we're talking about an F-16CJ simulator here and that is a very different beast indeed. I happen to have flown this plane a lot in Falcon 4 and if Eagle Dynamics are aiming towards a realistic avionics suite on this bird, keyboard control is NOT an option. There are literally hundreds of toggles, dials, MFD buttons etc that would be almost impossible to remember, and using them would be downright anti intuitive. The three MPFDs alone would require 60 unique keypresses to operate (each has 20 push buttons); the ILS & TACAN navigation system would probably take another 20 buttons etc etc. Even if they do not model the *entire cockpit*, operating the basic avionics suite would quickly overload your capacity for accurately remembering and inputting the correct keystrokes. Trust me on this; An interactive cockpit is not only desirable but a fundamental requirement to model real F16 operations. And I am definitely looking forward to seeing this, because Falcon is very long in the tooth and Eagle Dynamics may just be the team that can follow up on Microproses amazing achievement.
GGTharos Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 Actually, you could just deal with 20 buttons and switch between MFDs/panels. The key presses are thus not 'unique' and it's pretty much the way JF18 did it, and it worked. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
355th_Thomp Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 clickable cockpit would be super cool.. but comon, an F-16?? Why o why?? I thought we went through this already, its gotta be an F-18, a true multirole fighter! Bring along the AG Radar and you got yourself a winning combination! Think about the possibilities.. carrier ops.. ground strike.. and this is definately where you need the clickable cockpit (for the three F-18 MFD screens) forget the F-16! -thomp
britgliderpilot Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 That's true . . . why ARE we talking about an F16? F4's updates, the planned Fighter Ops . . . . that lot can deal with the F16. I'd rather see some USN aircraft if ED's next project is going to bring in some new American flyables - I should think the F14 and F/A-18 would be just as popular, just as many roles, and carrier capable to boot . . . . http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/britgliderpilot/BS2Britgliderpilot-1.jpg
Caretaker Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 I don't like using the mouse in the cockpit. In fact I hate it because it's so clumsy compared to the keyboard. But I realize a sizeable part of the flight sim community sees this in a different way, and if it's not too much work it can't hurt to include this to increase the general appeal. As for which planes will or should be simulated in any eventual Lock On successor, my humble opinion is that this is far too early to lobby for F-16's or Hornets :) Although indeed some kind of multirole fighter would be a good choice eventually. Speaking of which, a Strike Eagle is also multirole, and doesn't draw in the flak as much from the Falcon4 or Jane's F/A-18 communities :p As for moving pilot models, again this is something that would draw resources off from other areas, no way around that. However remembering EE:CH, it can be done in a nice and convincing way. Very cool feature of that sim! Caretaker ED Beta Test Team
olaleier Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 I don't like using the mouse in the cockpit. In fact I hate it because it's so clumsy compared to the keyboard. But I realize a sizeable part of the flight sim community sees this in a different way, and if it's not too much work it can't hurt to include this to increase the general appeal. Similar to Falcon 4, I assume every clickable function would have its own keystroke as well. "Hmmm, what was "dim nav lights" again? Ctrl-Shift-Alt-L? Or Alt-Shift-Ctrl-L?" :lol:
britgliderpilot Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 I don't like using the mouse in the cockpit. In fact I hate it because it's so clumsy compared to the keyboard. But I realize a sizeable part of the flight sim community sees this in a different way, and if it's not too much work it can't hurt to include this to increase the general appeal. What he said :P The Strike Eagle idea is certainly a good one (especially since we know two seats are now possible in MP), but does raise some interesting questions regarding offline use . . . . Can the pilot actually control the weapons, as well as fly? I know the backseater in the F15E has a duplicate set of flight controls - but IIRC a rather limited view out. It'd be interesting indeed to fly an entire mission from the back seat, including actually controlling the aircraft . . . http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/britgliderpilot/BS2Britgliderpilot-1.jpg
Caretaker Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 There are intelligent solutions for key functions management in various modes. You don't need all the keys for all functions all the time. And I managed Jane's F/A-18 without the mouse fine :) As for the two-seat issues, I'd say there has to be a solution anyway for the eventual Tornado addon :D Seriously, sims like Jane's F-15E, Longbow II or Tornado managed two people in single player nicely, and Longbow II had a perfect multiplayer mode in addition. It isn't easy, but doable - and we're not talking about Lock On anymore here after all ;) Caretaker ED Beta Test Team
SUBS17 Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 Theres a number of ways around the 2 seat issue! The first way is to have a toggle switch between pits like in Janes F15. The second way is to have an AI backseater eg Topgun And the third is as mentioned above using a human backseater. Its not hard flying and aiming in the Janes F15 set up. The best way is to combine all 3 approaches. So we have a toggle switch to sort out the back seat if you're having problems with the AI WSO or if you are doing a precision strike on something and want to hit something in particular. As well as the AI WSO who carries out his job automatically(as well as the checklists eg Janes F-15). And then with the ability to use Multiplayer. [sIGPIC] [/sIGPIC]
SUBS17 Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 [quote="olaleier Similar to Falcon 4, I assume every clickable function would have its own keystroke as well. "Hmmm, what was "dim nav lights" again? Ctrl-Shift-Alt-L? Or Alt-Shift-Ctrl-L?" :lol: Its best to use a combination of the two, especially for those of us using HOTAS. [sIGPIC] [/sIGPIC]
SUBS17 Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 That would be cool but I think it'd get old real quick. I'd rather see virtual hand operating the dials and switches when I hit the keyboard. How about a VR glove! With VR glasses, then you can see your own hand operating the controls(using a Realsimulator PIT). BTW other people could also see your hand signals! Maybe not possible yet but I wouldn't rule it out in the next 5 years. [sIGPIC] [/sIGPIC]
SUBS17 Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 clickable cockpit would be super cool.. but comon, an F-16?? Why o why?? I thought we went through this already, its gotta be an F-18, a true multirole fighter! Bring along the AG Radar and you got yourself a winning combination! Think about the possibilities.. carrier ops.. ground strike.. and this is definately where you need the clickable cockpit (for the three F-18 MFD screens) forget the F-16! -thomp F-16, F/A-18 either way its good. With one created then so to can the other as they are both very similar. [sIGPIC] [/sIGPIC]
SAM-Smasher Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 The second way is to have an AI backseater A way would need to be found to prevent the AI taking the plane for a joyride when you switch to backseat though. Thats assuming the AI would switch places with you??? Sorry if that doesnt make sense, im having a writers block at the moment :roll: "I love smashing the crap out of those buggers on the ground who keep making a beeping sound on my RWR..... the bells the bells!!!!!!.... erm yeah.... I like destroying SAM sites, thats the main point"
olaleier Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 As for the two-seat issues, I'd say there has to be a solution anyway for the eventual Tornado addon :D Seriously, sims like Jane's F-15E, Longbow II or Tornado managed two people in single player nicely, and Longbow II had a perfect multiplayer mode in addition. It isn't easy, but doable - and we're not talking about Lock On anymore here after all ;) Yes, I think this two-seater problem is way overrated. If you look at what you do, it's not more than slew-lock-fire, no matter what weapons you use. The almost extreme solution would be to have an AI WSO command you to targets (as specified in mission editor) but that has many potential problems and frustrations...another is the seat switch. You manage weapons from the back seat (F1 to toggle) but you still have stick control. You don't have to simulate the lack of flight controls the WSO has in order to simulate the weapon controls he does have. It's a flight sim, not a pilot sim. :wink: AI WSO can be completely dropped and a two seater would still provide fairly straight forward gameplay. MP would be fantastic!
britgliderpilot Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 The almost extreme solution would be to have an AI WSO command you to targets (as specified in mission editor) but that has many potential problems and frustrations...another is the seat switch. You manage weapons from the back seat (F1 to toggle) but you still have stick control. You don't have to simulate the lack of flight controls the WSO has in order to simulate the weapon controls he does have. Just for the record - according to what I've read, the WSO in the F15E has his own flight controls anyway. They're not usually pilot-qualified, but (of course) pick up how to fly the thing unofficially. Point is that keeping flight control while switching to the back seat is completely within the bounds of realism. So long as you don't complain that unbuckling your straps and crawling into the back seat of an F15E mid-flight isn't realistic, of course . . . . . :P http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/britgliderpilot/BS2Britgliderpilot-1.jpg
leafer Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 Dark_Sceptre, I have tried F4 and the clickable bit was fun for a while. I just don't find using a mouse to click booger size buttons very engaging. But I do see your point about needing it in a jet with multiple MFD's. SUB17, That would rule! Really looking forward to when that day comes. Imagine the suspension in disbelief. Is that how you say it? ED have been taking my money since 1995. :P
Oceandar Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 Clickable pit is a must if we want more avionics function, there is no other way !! And I vote for F/A-18 and MiG-29SMT/K Where is the comment from Dev for this matter ? Cheers Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself is true power. - Lao Tze
Caretaker Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 Clickable pit is a must if we want more avionics function, there is no other way !! And I vote for F/A-18 and MiG-29SMT/K Where is the comment from Dev for this matter ? Cheers I am pretty sure the devs don't want to give comments already which will be taken as promises in some years when the sim this is about will finally be released ;) They are certainly considering all options though. But the beta of 1.1 is in its final phase, the development of 1.2 hasn't really begun, so starting on the design phase of Lock On 2 seems a bit premature to me. Caretaker ED Beta Test Team
jctrnacty Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 re Well, everybodu is talking about clickable cockpit but i want to know ,what theater can we expect and what planes can we fly and does it have a dynamic campaign??? [sigpic][/sigpic] MB MSI x570 Prestige Creation, RYzen 9 3900X, 32 Gb Ram 3333MHz, cooler Dark rock PRO 4, eVGA 1080Ti, 32 inch BenQ 32011pt, saitek X52Pro, HP Reverb, win 10 64bit
britgliderpilot Posted January 7, 2005 Posted January 7, 2005 Re: re Well, everybodu is talking about clickable cockpit but i want to know ,what theater can we expect and what planes can we fly and does it have a dynamic campaign??? Read Caretaker's post, immediately above your own . . . . think that sums it up the best way possible. One more thing to bear in mind - it's all very well coming up with a giant list of things that you want to do with your sim *COUGH*fighterops*COUGH* . . . . but it's no good coming up with a features list unless you can actually put all those features into a working simulation . . . . http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/britgliderpilot/BS2Britgliderpilot-1.jpg
Oceandar Posted January 8, 2005 Posted January 8, 2005 Err..sorry caretaker for not clear enough, I mean where is dev comment about clickable pits was being considered, I mean the source of info. Cheers Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself is true power. - Lao Tze
Dark_Sceptre Posted January 8, 2005 Posted January 8, 2005 Re: re One more thing to bear in mind - it's all very well coming up with a giant list of things that you want to do with your sim *COUGH*fighterops*COUGH* . . . . but it's no good coming up with a features list unless you can actually put all those features into a working simulation . . . . Lol, fighterops is rapidly becoming a competitor to Duke Nukem 4ever for a "Vaporware of the centry" award or a "The Gaming Industrys Biggest Farce" plaque. Don't expect anything productive from that front.
britgliderpilot Posted January 8, 2005 Posted January 8, 2005 Re: re One more thing to bear in mind - it's all very well coming up with a giant list of things that you want to do with your sim *COUGH*fighterops*COUGH* . . . . but it's no good coming up with a features list unless you can actually put all those features into a working simulation . . . . Lol, fighterops is rapidly becoming a competitor to Duke Nukem 4ever for a "Vaporware of the centry" award or a "The Gaming Industrys Biggest Farce" plaque. Don't expect anything productive from that front. I'm entirely willing to reconsider Fighter Ops if they can show me something which can be easily shown to be new - but they haven't yet. Jet Thunder seems to be overtaking it in displayed development rather quickly . . . . c'mon guys, speed it up a bit . . . In itself, it can't be shown to be vapourware just yet - it hasn't been around for nearly long enough, they could still be doing their work in secret. On the other hand, we can still make perfectly legitimate snide comments about Falcon V and Falcon 4:Gold . . . . . :P Asssuming they ARE working on something, it'll have some serious competition if ED can bring out Lomac 2 with clickable pits and a couple of American flyables . . . . oh, AND nice shiny graphics . . . http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/britgliderpilot/BS2Britgliderpilot-1.jpg
olaleier Posted January 8, 2005 Posted January 8, 2005 Speaking of which, would anyone like a Jan 5th Thunder Works update with a Harrier video? :D Here you go: http://www.thunder-works.com/news.htm Very very pre-alpha, but I love how they throw us bones like this.
Kula66 Posted January 8, 2005 Posted January 8, 2005 Personally, I can't see the point of a clickable cockpit ... I already have both hands full with HOTAS ... you can access commands quicker via keyboard and I've never seen one in any pictures of an real F-15/A-10/Su ... Better to spend precious development resource on AFM/Radar/Other planes/ etc ... IMHO Regards, James PS> Thunderworks is starting to look promising ... I'd love to have a Sea Harrier sim!!!
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