Let's have some fun

[ThunderChief]

I am no expert on this, but if you get the order to take out that convoy before it reaches the right side of the map, it won't help you to have more space for operations.

Even if you could allow the convoy to move farther east, you would probably not know where it goes and so you would have to make contact as soon as possible.

 

I think the basic problem with that task is that you will be forced to hide behind terrain with at least ~5km distance to take out the air defence.

Given your maximum speed is only 6x the speed of the convoy, you will have only limited options to position your self before the convoy can escape.

 

Will BS allow stinger teams on regular vehicles that will be deploy only after they detected you? That would make it much more complicated that in LOFC were you could simply use the Shval to take out any air defence at a save range.

[nemises]

^^ with triggers you could do that.

In other posts, ED have indicated that "Zones" for triggers can be attached to moving vehicles.

Therefore, you could set a trigger that if your KA50 comes within xxKM of a vehicle then spawn a stinger team.

 

I don't know how you could dynamically position the team after spawn, though I guess you can add behavior permaters to any unit like in Arma ?

 

I also don't know if you can trigger based on detection rather than distance.

 

but the theory is sound.

[Yellonet]

I have a problem with the scenario you've given us. That map there is just that, a "map". Its a rather claustrophobic one too. By thinking in terms of that map, I think you're going to throw out your biggest advantages over the enemy; mobility and speed. You can go places the convoy can't and 50km is nothing compared to what you're packing!

 

I wouldn't want to think of this in terms of an immobile ambush if I didn't have to. It'd be nice to know what the terrain and threats were in a larger area so that you can use your speed and mobility to attrit that convoy with multiple ambushes effectively with as few losses as possible. A mobile "defense in depth", if you will with a minimum of exposure and an attack from at least two directions at once.. Maybe thats not possible here, but I would think you'd want to know.

I know that my scenario is far from perfect in any way but it was really just a thread-starter, I would like someone who feels the call ;) to create a better scenario to get the community discussing tactics.

[GGTharos]

Actually it's an OK scenario. I guess if you consider your map the 'authorized killbox', then you're probably looking at reasonable average engagement distances. You can be so bold as to position your Ka-50's in the convoy's path and still get 6km opening shots.

[RedTiger]

I know Yellownet! This is the only time I've seen someone put something like this up, and I do appreciate it. My point was that you'd have to make this a restraint in the briefing as well as set up possible failure conditions. Otherwise, I wouldn't expect someone to stuff their kills in that small of a space if they didn't have to. However, such a restraint does sound like one would imagine a low-intensity aircraft like the Ka-50 must operate under!

 

@ThunderChief

 

Yes, if you are ordered to take them out before the map edge, more space will not help. My question is, why are we starting this attack at the map edge? There are plenty of reasons why this might be the case. Asking why is just food for thought.

 

This type of scenario is a very typical one you encountered while playing TacOps. The scope is much larger (like USMC Brigade vs. Soviet Motor-rifle regiment), but the tactics are similar. You can't make neat little kill zones over the span of a few kilometers and expect to attrit them to any great extent. You had to be ready to mount a mobile defense in depth. The alternative is that not only will you not attrit them, they'll kill run right over you and kill everyone in the process!

 

I think with a limited "kill box" like this, you'd have to be very skilled and very, very coordinated to not risk loosing some of your flight. However, I'd like as much wiggle room as possible!

[GGTharos]

^^^^

If you had a human opponent controlling the ground vehicles and they could efectively defend themselves from say, Vikhrs, you would definitely have quite a fight on your hands there.

[RedTiger]

Heh, I think you'd have a fight on your hands against even AI when you're in a helicopter under 3km from ground forces.

 

So, I guess this is my executive summary; I am pessimistic about the lifespan of a helicopter to begin with. Start shrinking the engagement ranges and my pessimism increases. In this scenario, I think your chances of pulling it off with no casualties are very slim. I'd say in a scenario like this, one lost Ka-50 would probably count as a "failure" if I were designing the mission.

[GGTharos]

Depends on where the convoy is when you enter the scenario. Again, if you get in its path before the first turn to the east, and you're far east, it's easy money.

[Tango]

"A weapon is only as effective as the guy using it" - Me.

 

I like this challenge! I think the best option is to hide behind the available cover, and be prepared to run if fired upon. The Shielka only has limited ammunition, so try and tease it into firing often.

 

The biggest threat would be the convoy scattering. You'd then have to prioritize very quickly which targets you're going to engage first. You'd also need to be aware that they're not setting YOU up for the kill, whilst looking chaotic (can the AI in BS do this?).

 

One thing that will be critical to BS will be the intelligence of the AI in making decisions. I hope they're good.

 

So to recap.. I'd get behind any available cover, and would try to pick them off. I'd also use my wingman as a distraction. This would work best with two or more human pilots. They can't shoot at everything all the time.

 

Best regards,

Tango.

Edited July 24, 2008 by Tango

[GGTharos]

I like this challenge! I think the best option is to hide behind the available cover, and be prepared to run if fired upon. The Shielka only has limited ammunition, so try and tease it into firing often.

 

This is a helicopter you're flying. If you fly into shilka's fire range, expect to take hits.

 

Just keep your distance and you'll nail'em even on open terrain.

[159th_Viper]

 

I like this challenge! I think the best option is to hide behind the available cover, and be prepared to run if fired upon. The Shielka only has limited ammunition, so try and tease it into firing often.

 

 

Best regards,

Tango.

 

 

 

That's akin to grabbing a Rhino by the Ghoolies and givin' it a shake............somehow I don't think you're gonna walk away without a Bruise or two :D

 

Which brings me to another wee query: Has the Engagement parameters for AI (As an example, the ZSU-23-4) been tweaked/adjusted at all insofar as the propensity to always engage at RMAX is concerned?

[Tango]

This is a helicopter you're flying. If you fly into shilka's fire range, expect to take hits.

I like getting into the action! :D

 

Can the AI see you when you're hiding behind cover and don't do anything unnecessarily to be detected? e.g. if I'm behind some dense trees, then pop-up, obviously they're going ot know I'm there, but if I then disappear behind them again and slide to one side, would they still "see" me, even though I was actually obscured from view?

 

Best regards,

Tango.

[GGTharos]

Do not use trees for cover, dense or otherwise. You have been warned ;)

 

As for popping down and hiding again, I don't really know. I'll just tell you this: if you see rounds flying, the chance that you can get out of the way is slim. And it's not just shilkas that will engage you. The entire convoy will light up if they have weapons. Basically, expect to the center of attention. Now if if the risk of taking 20mm+ fire through your cranium is worth it to you ... :D

[Yellonet]

Someone make a real scenario already! :director: :smilewink:

[kapuhy]

I would try some good old classic - after short recon, simultaneously killing one or two first and last vehicles in the column (probably the most valuable and danger) from far distance in the narrowest part of the road should make nice big mess, not mentioning influence on morale. That would make rather chaotic spreading of enemy vehicles, instead of tactical regrouping. Escaping from ambush should be hard, killing "lucky" lonely trucks - shouldn't :) The key things are first – surprise, and then - hiding over hills and changing position to make tracking you hard. And of course keeping the distance.

But I may be wrong :music_whistling:

[RedTiger]

Do not use trees for cover, dense or otherwise. You have been warned ;)

 

 

What harm is there in a couple hundred meters behind some woods? Are you talking about being closer than this?

 

As for popping down and hiding again, I don't really know. I'll just tell you this: if you see rounds flying, the chance that you can get out of the way is slim. And it's not just shilkas that will engage you. The entire convoy will light up if they have weapons. Basically, expect to the center of attention. Now if if the risk of taking 20mm+ fire through your cranium is worth it to you ... :D

 

This is what I like to hear! Every idiot with rifle and pistol should be shooting at you! :lol: This was my original concern. Its not just MANPADs and Shilka's its the entire convey getting a bead on you that worries me.

 

BTW...can you order AI wingmen around to the extent that this mission would require? Can I tell them to go to different places on the map using the ABRIS and then order them NOE or something to take cover? Are they smart enough to fire at something and them immediately take cover?

[GGTharos]

... I believe this is a question for a dev note or something. I can't really answer you since it's something that hasn't been covered. :)

 

As for trees - as you know, in Black Shark they are not collidable. I'll leave it at that.

[Yellonet]

I have a feeling that the AI can both see and shoot through trees, they're probably nothing more than eye-candy, a real disadvantage for you as a player.

[Tango]

I have a feeling that the AI can both see and shoot through trees, they're probably nothing more than eye-candy, a real disadvantage for you as a player.

This is what I was wondering. Trees offer a very good tactical advantage, so if they're non-existent to the AI, you've just lost some of your tactical and defensive capability. :(

 

I can understand a tank shooting through trees at you, but small arms fire shouldn't be a problem, and you should be able to protect yourself.

 

That trees are also non-collidable just took the realism down a few notches for me. :(

 

I appreciate that this sim focuses primarily on the aircraft and its weapons systems etc.. but given the sim overall, it needed the world on the other side of the glass to be equally realistic, for maximum immersion.

 

I was hoping it was going to be a bit like Operation Flashpoint from that point of view - you can hide feet from the enemy and not be seen if you hide and sit quiet, and you can lose them in the woods, the trees offer you cover etc.. - tactically it is excellent.

 

Best regards,

Tango.

[GGTharos]

It's basically an issue that probably won't be tackled until the new engine.

 

That trees are also non-collidable just took the realism down a few notches for me. :(

 

I appreciate that this sim focuses primarily on the aircraft and its weapons systems etc.. but given the sim overall, it needed the world on the other side of the glass to be equally realistic, for maximum immersion.

[Tango]

Fair enough. I guess when you're flying an Su-27 *over* the trees, it doesn't really matter.

 

Just to clarify - if I hide behind the trees, the AI can see me as if I decided to park in front of them?

 

Best regards,

Tango.

[ThunderChief]

How about a similar convoy (2 Shilka, maybe 1-2 MANPAD) attack but this time in a valley. Lets say the convoy tries to reach a crashed airplane (e.g. Russian Mig-29 downed in Georgia), and only you and your wingman are around to stop them.

 

The convoy is going uphill, and about 20km from the crashsite, you are somewhere near the Mig.

 

At the crashsite the valley is very narrow and minimum elevation is ~2500m and mountains up to 4000m.

 

Further down the valley gets broader, but you know there is a SAM side and other AA threats "down there".

 

So what would you do?

Wait for the convoy in the narrow and high part of the valley or risk an engagement in proximity to AAA and SAM?

 

What I don't know is at what altitude will the KA-50's performance starts to suffer, and if icing could become a problem in the mountains (consider its winter and clouds at 1000m OR 3000m in that mission).

 

Any suggestions?

Edited July 24, 2008 by ThunderChief

[-sulan-]

I like this thread!! :)

 

Here is my take on the first scenario:

It has me down to the southwest and mr wingman ready to pop up in the north of the area.

 

Box 1: First I'll have a look up the road well before they come into threat range or turn east, I'll primarily have a look and if possible kill the Shilka.

 

Box 2: I'll either hide or go to alternative pos 2 while mr wingman takes out targets I designated just before.

 

Box 3: mr wingman has moved to his pos 2 ready to pop up. I'll be at my pos 2 and firing or at my alternative pos 2 in case they dropped off any MANPADS in box 1 or 2.

 

We'll just kill them off one by one in box 3 and 4...

Something like so :) What do you think?

[RedTiger]

@ GG & Yellownet

 

Damn it, I forgot about the trees in the current DCS engine (and LOMAC for that matter). Like Tango said, it is a bummer. :(

 

As for the other part...I know you can't say anymore, but you've said enough. ;)

Edited July 24, 2008 by RedTiger

[GGTharos]

Use ridges. You findthere are MANY ridges in lands you once considered flat when flying the Ka-50 :)