Gun on the Shark?

[Peyoteros]

To avoid any further discussion on this matter the gun from Ka50 has been removed...

Edited September 3, 2008 by Peyoteros

[slug88]

But how will the gun's removal affect the tactical flexibility of the Shark? Is it an advantage or a disadvantage?

[Peyoteros]

It will be replaced with 150 mm cannon!

[Yellonet]

It will be replaced with 150 mm cannon!

A recoilless cannon! :thumbup:

[Yellonet]

Hi there,

 

4. Combat is an unknown, improvise, adapt, and over-come. Restrictions on physical "Gun Placement" limitations can predict in-egression waypoints. Scary when you in the pit 4 real.

 

P.S. The word "Predict" is a refrence 2 Geological features such as who your engaging, what your engaging, where your engaged, why your engaged, and how you engage.

 

:pilotfly:

So you're saying that the enemy can better predict where the Ka-50 will attack from because of the placement of the gun? Isn't that a bit far fetched? :huh:

[nscode]

Again, the gun does not limit you in K-50. You just turn and shoot :) With additional advantage of presenting the smallest possible target ;)

[crazysundog]

When the developers of the Black Shark were drawing up the prints for the KA-50 what was the logic in setting the gun on one side of the KA-50?

 

We all know how fluid and unpredictable combat is so why is the the gun limited to only a specific side of the KA-50?

 

Example: If the KA-50s gun could move all the way to the left you could target the AAA site, but instead you need to take time to move the KA-50 into a fireing soulution, which might be too late.

 

Im at a loss with the logic and placement of the KA-50s' foward gun placement.

 

:helpsmilie:

 

I think the placement of the gun had much to do with what was available and what was simple. Placing the gun in a manner similar to the Apache may have entailed designing and building a new gun, and perhaps altering the airframe.

 

Now, in reference to your example, ("Your in your KA-50 shooting a target some where off to the right of you. Then all of the sudden AAA comes up from the ground 1/2 mile to your left side.") let me ask you a question: When you realize that you are being hit broadside by AAA, do you really want to keep that profile, or do you want to turn toward/away from the target to minimize your cross-section; at the same time taking evasive maneuvres?? **for the sake of argument, we'll assume the first hits didn't blow you out of the sky...

 

 

I think my point is, you will be lucky to survive such encounters, and good recon is the key to the Black Shark.

[cool_t]

So you're saying that the enemy can better predict where the Ka-50 will attack from because of the placement of the gun? Isn't that a bit far fetched? :huh:

 

Hi there,

 

Thinking of every posible senero in combat will prepare a pilot for the unseen or possible tactical/defendible/executable mission goals.

 

Example: Vietnam, F-105s' flew flight paths to the target. After the N.V.A. figured out flight paths they set SAMs in the filght paths.

 

Your oponant will try to exploit every possible weakness, design-flaw, and or the physical capabilitys of any type of combat weaponry.

 

Example: On hyper lobby the F-15c has a great fuel load (Potential-energy) where the Mig-29 does not have as much fuel. In some cases I will drag a bandit so far from the battle zone that I know he is eather low on fuel or he will dis-engage and run for home. Then one can take advantage of the F-15s' fuel load in this situation, your at his 6 and the bandit is bingo fuel and the F-15c has plenty of fuel.

 

Im really excited about the detail that ED is going to provide us with on the KA-50.

[cool_t]

Again, the gun does not limit you in K-50. You just turn and shoot :) With additional advantage of presenting the smallest possible target ;)

 

Hi,

 

I agree with you, turn shoot. But we forgot, what are we fighting, the weather, geological features, KA-50s air speed, altitude, and how long it takes you to put the gun on the bad guy.

[GGTharos]

The bad guy already has a gun on you. You've already lost the initiative no matter what your gun setup is.

[cool_t]

I think the placement of the gun had much to do with what was available and what was simple. Placing the gun in a manner similar to the Apache may have entailed designing and building a new gun, and perhaps altering the airframe.

 

Now, in reference to your example, ("Your in your KA-50 shooting a target some where off to the right of you. Then all of the sudden AAA comes up from the ground 1/2 mile to your left side.") let me ask you a question: When you realize that you are being hit broadside by AAA, do you really want to keep that profile, or do you want to turn toward/away from the target to minimize your cross-section; at the same time taking evasive maneuvres?? **for the sake of argument, we'll assume the first hits didn't blow you out of the sky...

 

 

I think my point is, you will be lucky to survive such encounters, and good recon is the key to the Black Shark.

 

Hi,

 

Sure the KA-50s profile is a good factor, but how much time will it take to move the KA-50 into a fireing solution, compared to if the KA-50s' gun could move all the way to the target.

 

As we play the game im sure we will have further insight on this issue.

[cool_t]

The bad guy already has a gun on you. You've already lost the initiative no matter what your gun setup is.

 

Well lets say then you see the tracers comming up to your KA-50 and you have some time. Were are talking seconds here. The main point that I am trying to explane is that as vitual KA-50 pilots prepare for there missions they need to be concious of the limitaions on the gun. Also prepare for lets say you pop up, un-mask, and there is AAA to your left side.

Edited September 3, 2008 by cool_t

[sobek]

No offense, but your what-if scenarios are getting rather pointless. You ask if a gun that was designed with a standoff capability in mind would be a hindrance when shooting one's way out of a no-win situation . You might as well argue if the rotor is a hindrance when flying in orbit ;)

[Zorrin]

Hi,

 

Sure the KA-50s profile is a good factor, but how much time will it take to move the KA-50 into a fireing solution, compared to if the KA-50s' gun could move all the way to the target.

 

As we play the game im sure we will have further insight on this issue.

 

 

Well what is the time it takes the gun on an AH64 to traverse left 90 degrees?

 

And what is the time it takes a KA50 to do a pure pedal turn left 90 degrees?

 

Surely that is the only difference.

 

Instead of a turret turning, you turn the entire airframe. This is easier because you are operating single pilot. Sure if there's some chappie in the front taking care of wepaons then it's a nifty little thing to have a turret.

 

By the same token of your arguements about the gun placement on the KA50 then every single fighter aircraft has the gun in the wrong place.

 

It should be mounted to my left shoulder and look everywhere I look. Becuase it's much easier to co-ordinate a gun as well as my aircraft/heli/airframe than it is just to manipulate the thing I've strapped to my back.......

 

Throughout history, when has there ever been a fully articulated gun on a production single seater? I'm 99.9% certain, that there isn't.

 

Surely history will teach us a few lessons.............

[GGTharos]

You have 1.5 seconds, maybe 2. Not enough to do anything - if you try to focus on gunning instead of outflying those bullets, they will intercept you with extreme prejudice.

 

Well lets say then you see the tracers comming up to your KA-50 and you have some time. Were are talking seconds here. The main point that I am trying to explane is that as vitual KA-50 pilots prepare for there missions they need to be concious of the limitaions on the gun. Also prepare for lets say you pop up, un-mask, and there is AAA to your left side.

[cool_t]

Well what is the time it takes the gun on an AH64 to traverse left 90 degrees?

 

And what is the time it takes a KA50 to do a pure pedal turn left 90 degrees?

 

Surely that is the only difference.

 

Instead of a turret turning, you turn the entire airframe. This is easier because you are operating single pilot. Sure if there's some chappie in the front taking care of wepaons then it's a nifty little thing to have a turret.

 

By the same token of your arguements about the gun placement on the KA50 then every single fighter aircraft has the gun in the wrong place.

 

It should be mounted to my left shoulder and look everywhere I look. Becuase it's much easier to co-ordinate a gun as well as my aircraft/heli/airframe than it is just to manipulate the thing I've strapped to my back.......

 

Throughout history, when has there ever been a fully articulated gun on a production single seater? I'm 99.9% certain, that there isn't.

 

Surely history will teach us a few lessons.............

 

We will find out in combat when the relaese the KA-50

[cool_t]

You have 1.5 seconds, maybe 2. Not enough to do anything - if you try to focus on gunning instead of outflying those bullets, they will intercept you with extreme prejudice.

 

We will find out in combat when they give us the Black Shark.

[cool_t]

No offense, but your what-if scenarios are getting rather pointless. You ask if a gun that was designed with a standoff capability in mind would be a hindrance when shooting one's way out of a no-win situation . You might as well argue if the rotor is a hindrance when flying in orbit ;)

 

Your right, limitaions and scenarios are a part of life and combat. When was the last time you had the same engagement on Hyper Lobby?

 

We will find out in combat when the KA-50 is released.

[sobek]

When was the last time you had the same engagement on Hyper Lobby?

 

We will find out in combat when the KA-50 is released.

 

I'm sorry but i don't get what you are trying to ask me.

[cool_t]

I'm sorry but i don't get what you are trying to ask me.

 

Ok you stated in your post "No offense, but your what-if scenarios are getting rather pointless"

 

Combat is a "what if-scenarios", its never the same. Do you fly on line?

 

:thumbup:

[GGTharos]

No, combat is a 'predicted scenarios, die if you don't predict it' in general. ;)

[-Skipper-]

With quotes like "the muzzle brake absorbs 70% of the weapon's recoil" and the fact that the weapon is recoil-operated, it's clear that the U.S. Army does not recognize the M82A1 as being "recoilless".

 

But Recoil and Recoil-Operated are two different things, aren't they?

 

On a gas-operated gun, the recoil affects the whole weapon, while a part of the propellant gas is being used to eject the empty cartridge and place a new one in the chamber. Muzzle-brakes are used to channel the gas when exiting the barrel, trying to countereffect the recoil of the bullet.

 

If you use a recoil-operated gun, though, most of the energy from the recoil is channeled to reload the gun, while only the excess energy has an effect on the gun itself. It should me more stable in this regard, not less. As the M82A1 also has a ventilated chamber, this effect is further increased. So theoretically, an M82A1 is less effected by recoil than the M95.

 

IMHO this also explains why the same muzzle-brake is able to reduce 70% of the remaining recoil on the M82A1, while it only "assists" reducing recoil on the M95.

[sobek]

Ok you stated in your post "No offense, but your what-if scenarios are getting rather pointless"

 

Combat is a "what if-scenarios", its never the same. Do you fly on line?

 

 

What i tried to say was, your scenario was a no-win in which every healthy pilot would try to run instead of gun, so there's no point in arguing whether the gun placement was a disadvantage or not. You dig? :)

 

And to answer your question, i'm not playing online currently, as the only sim i have installed at the moment is F4 with FF4, which is a little troublesome in mp. That's why i'm eagerly awaiting FF5 (or even more so DCS: BS)

Edited September 5, 2008 by sobek

[cool_t]

What i tried to say was, your scenario was a no-win in which every healthy pilot would try to run instead of gun, so there's no point in arguing whether the gun placement was a disadvantage or not. You dig? :)

 

And to answer your question, i'm not playing online currently, as the only sim i have installed at the moment is F4 with FF4, which is a little troublesome in mp. That's why i'm eagerly awaiting FF5 (or even more so DCS: BS)

 

Hi,

 

I would not say a "No-win" Im trying too say prepare for the Black Shark and all of its fun gadgets.

 

:joystick:

 

P.S. I feel also that you should get LOMAC-FC and face off with some of the Squads/People on Hyper Loby, you will learn what limitaions can be.

Edited September 6, 2008 by cool_t

[RedTiger]

Hi,

 

I would not say a "No-win" Im trying too say prepare for the Black Shark and all of its fun gadgets.

 

:joystick:

 

P.S. I feel also that you should get LOMAC-FC and face off with some of the Squads/People on Hyper Loby, you will learn what limitaions can be.

 

Hey sobek! I think you should face off with some of the competative Pac-Man players out there. You will learn when you should eat the pellets that turn the ghosts blue and when you save those so you can eat more dots. :smartass: