VKB Gunfighter Mk.III MCG Ultimate Pro-L vs Winwing FA-18 JOYSTICK COMBO SUPER LIBRA (with Extension)

[piermartel92]

Hi,
This the first serious stick I'm buying (I have a crappy no-name one) and I can't decide between these two.
I will be using it with a ~20cm extension in center position
I did a little bit of research on the web and from what I understand:

Winwing's cons:
1- Winwing (as it's F18 replica) lacks analog ministicks, which I think I would find useful for guiding certain weapons or as MFD cursor etc. and overall it has less switches compared to VKB.
2- Watching Youtube reviews of the Winwing, apparently there were a lot of issues with tolerances and switches' quality etc in early units which were promised to be fixed in production units, and I'm wondering if these issues were actually fixed?

VKB's cons:
1- It's more expensive than Winwing, 550$ (ultimate Pro-L) vs 350$ (Winwing joystick base + grip + extension, as I will be getting a third party mount)
2- Even though the grip is made out of metal, the joint between the grip and the base seems to be made out of plastic with troublesome fasteners, and I've read people saying it does flex quite a bit at full deflection especially with heavy springs ...
3- From what I read it seems that the feeling around the center isn't as smooth and as good as Winwing's?

I would appreciate your thoughts and personal experiences
Thanks

Edited April 7, 2021 by piermartel92

[Lynchsl62]

VKB Gunfighter Mk III with MCG Ultimate Pro is outstanding, the Gunfighter base has clutches which act as dampers which dampen down the movement on release. The CAM’s have symmetrical response in the axis and the center is well defined with no/minimal play. The MCG Ultimate Pro is possibly the best grip out there apart from RealSimulator gear. You can swap out the TDC joystick to another hat - included in the set. The paddle is actually an axis which means you can vary the hydraulic pressure on the soviet aircraft as well as the spitfire. To me there is no comparison. 
 

 

[dburne]

2 hours ago, piermartel92 said:

Hi,
This the first serious stick I'm buying (I have a crappy no-name one) and I can't decide between these two.
I will be using it with a ~20cm extension in center position
I did a little bit of research on the web and from what I understand:

Winwing's cons:
1- Winwing (as it's F18 replica) lacks analog ministicks, which I think I would find useful for guiding certain weapons or as MFD cursor etc. and overall it has less switches compared to VKB.
2- Watching Youtube reviews of the Winwing, apparently there were a lot of issues with tolerances and switches' quality etc in early units which were promised to be fixed in production units, and I'm wondering if these issues were actually fixed?

VKB's cons:
1- It's more expensive than Winwing, 550$ (ultimate Pro-L) vs 350$ (Winwing joystick base + grip + extension, as I will be getting a third party mount)
2- Even though the grip is made out of metal, the joint between the grip and the base seems to be made out of plastic with troublesome fasteners, and I've read people saying it does flex quite a bit at full deflection especially with heavy springs ...
3- From what I read it seems that the feeling around the center isn't as smooth and as good as Winwing's?

I would appreciate your thoughts and personal experiences
Thanks

 

 

VKB Gunfighter Pro L with Ultimate Grip is the nirvana.

The end.

 

Using mine for a few hours every day. Have been using the base for over a year now, the Ultimate grip since it's early pre-release. Absolutely incredible with extreme adjustability.

Not sure where plastic for the joint between grip and base comes from. Mine is metal and the locking screw for the grip snugs up quite nicely. The fastener it uses is metal also. And it is quite easy to detach and attach. I have done so many times experimenting with different springs and damper settings.

I can't image the feeling around center being smoother.

 

I only had 1 issue and that was my fault. In taking apart and putting back together last week I got a little careless with the wire placement. Ended up with one wire getting pinched and then cut in two. A quick solder job and I was back in business. One should always take care to make sure those wires don't end up in a precarious position. My bad.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by dburne

[piermartel92]

Thank (both of) you for the info

 

10 hours ago, Lynchsl62 said:

VKB Gunfighter Mk III with MCG Ultimate Pro is outstanding, the Gunfighter base has clutches which act as dampers which dampen down the movement on release. The CAM’s have symmetrical response in the axis and the center is well defined with no/minimal play. The MCG Ultimate Pro is possibly the best grip out there apart from RealSimulator gear. You can swap out the TDC joystick to another hat - included in the set. The paddle is actually an axis which means you can vary the hydraulic pressure on the soviet aircraft as well as the spitfire. To me there is no comparison. 
 

 

I was actually contemplating to break the bank and get the realsimulator gear after seeing their "force sensing" joysticks
how do you like them? are they as accurate as a e.g. VKB with a 20cm extension, after getting used to them? any caveat/disadvantage in particular? 

Also apparently their F-18 and F-16-CE sticks can be used in standalone mode by just mounting them on top of a rod/pipe, since the grips have internal sensors as well. have you tried this? would it be accurate in this mode (without using their FSSB base)?

And most importantly, on their website it says that the standard (non-collectors-edition) F-16 grip has a plastic nylon fixation nut for connection to the base and the collectors edition has the aluminum fixation nut. but when I saw a youtube unboxing of the standard edition, it had an aluminum fixation (and not plastic) ... did you get an aluminum fixation on your grip? or a plastic one? and if it's plastic, is it concerning? 
and to clarify, this is what I'm talking about:

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by piermartel92

[streakeagle]

I have both the WinWing and the VKB Gunfighter (both of my Gunfighters are Mk2s with full Mk3 upgrades).

 

The WinWing has a dual cam system that is not that much different from the Warthog, and therefore is less than perfect in its feel near the center. The WinWing is way better than the Warthog, but you can definitely feel the transition across the center.

 

The VKB has a smooth cam for aviators: no hard detent. If you use max springs (2 x #40), I can feel the center just a little bit. But with single #50 springs, it is butter smooth across the center with no feeling of a detent at all... yet if you slap the stick and let it self-center, it hits dead center almost every single time.

 

I haven't tried the Virpil sticks, but in my experience with the VKB, the best any competing stick can do is match it because I can't think of anything that could improve it in terms of accuracy, precision, and feel.

 

My one complaint with the VKB is the means for swapping grips. The locknut requires an allen wrench and on early versions doesn't have a D shape to keep it from rotating. So it is a minor hassle to swap grips. But the newer grips have a D-shaped hole and a D-shaped lock nut that makes it a little easier to use.

 

My WinWing stick sits in a corner collecting dust while my much older but better VKB remains in service. I used the WinWing stick for about two weeks straight to see how well it worked. I loved the grip. I just couldn't stand the feeling and sound of the cams near the center after being spoiled by the VKB. I prefer the WinWing over the Warthog any day. The WinWing also uses a serial cable similar to what is used in Warthog extensions. I don't really care for that. The VKB connector is superior with no loose cables to twist or break and no real chance of bending/breaking pins. The WinWing also needs a lock screw to keep the stick from slipping. Unlike the VKB, it locks by taking a bite into the mount. I haven't used the lock screw, so I sometimes my WinWing grip and/or extension breaks loose while using it.

 

If you are looking for just a stick and money is no object, I don't think anyone can beat VKB's Gunfighter series right now. But despite some apparent quality control issues in the struggle to meet high demand, WinWing is not a bad choice, just not as good as VKB.

Edited April 8, 2021 by streakeagle

[VpR81]

12 hours ago, piermartel92 said:

I was actually contemplating to break the bank and get the realsimulator gear after seeing their "force sensing" joysticks
how do you like them? are they as accurate as a e.g. VKB with a 20cm extension, after getting used to them? any caveat/disadvantage in particular? 

Also apparently their F-18 and F-16-CE sticks can be used in standalone mode by just mounting them on top of a rod/pipe, since the grips have internal sensors as well. have you tried this? would it be accurate in this mode (without using their FSSB base)?

And most importantly, on their website it says that the standard (non-collectors-edition) F-16 grip has a plastic nylon fixation nut for connection to the base and the collectors edition has the aluminum fixation nut. but when I saw a youtube unboxing of the standard edition, it had an aluminum fixation (and not plastic) ... did you get an aluminum fixation on your grip? or a plastic one? and if it's plastic, is it concerning? 
and to clarify, this is what I'm talking about:

I've got the RS F-18 grip mounted on a Virpil T-50CM2 base with 30cm extension (10cm straight and 20cm curved) and i highly doubt there is a better grip out there. I have absolutely zero complaints with it, imho it's perfect. My Brother has the VKB Gunfighter Mk III with the MCG Pro (non-Ultimate) and i have to say it is a great stick/grip, but imo cannot keep up with the RS grip. First i was afraid to miss the metal touch of the TM F-18 grip, but the resin material the RS is made of feels just outstanding. I haven't tried the gyro sensor yet, but according to the axis display in the RS software it seems to be very accurate. For standalone mode you'll only need to ensure power supply via battery pack/5-Pin connector cable. The fixation nut is rock solid on the extension with absolutely zero play (unlike my TM F-18 grip), wich i guess is the same with the F-16 CE. Can't speak for the standard F-16 grip, but that it has a nylon fixation nut is news to me. I think this wasn't the case back when i pre-ordered the F-18 grip (was thinking about getting the F-16 too back then) and they changed the fixation system of the standard F-16 grip from aluminium to nylon in the meantime. Will need to go with the CE anyways, as i have a Virpil WarBRD base for sidestick use. You should also be aware, that the standard F-16 grip needs the RS base for full functionality. On Virpil or TM bases, only the F-16 CE and the F-18 grip provide full functionality as they both have a integrated bluetooth module wich the standard F-16 grip lacks. Therefore i use the Virpil base only for axis input while button input is done via BT so i can use all of the buttons instead of the reduced number of buttons the Virpil base supports (TM supports even less buttons). Be aware that the BT module of the RS grips need a solid BT connection wich not every BT dongle can provide. Most dongles have random disconnects with the RS grips, wich would be a pain in the a** during flight. I use the ASUS BT400 dongle and never had any disconnects. For more informations wich BT dongles work reliable with the RS grips, you would want to check out the RS forum.

 

Cheers and choose wise

[Lynchsl62]

13 hours ago, piermartel92 said:

Thank (both of) you for the info

 

I was actually contemplating to break the bank and get the realsimulator gear after seeing their "force sensing" joysticks
how do you like them? are they as accurate as a e.g. VKB with a 20cm extension, after getting used to them? any caveat/disadvantage in particular? 

Also apparently their F-18 and F-16-CE sticks can be used in standalone mode by just mounting them on top of a rod/pipe, since the grips have internal sensors as well. have you tried this? would it be accurate in this mode (without using their FSSB base)?

And most importantly, on their website it says that the standard (non-collectors-edition) F-16 grip has a plastic nylon fixation nut for connection to the base and the collectors edition has the aluminum fixation nut. but when I saw a youtube unboxing of the standard edition, it had an aluminum fixation (and not plastic) ... did you get an aluminum fixation on your grip? or a plastic one? and if it's plastic, is it concerning? 
and to clarify, this is what I'm talking about:

 

 

 

I have the Realsimulator F18 CGRH mounted on the FSSB R3 Lighting Base. I also have the Realsimulator F16 CERH mounted on the Brunner CLS-E Force Feedback Base with the Arduino module that allows true Force Feedback in DCS and IL-2.

 

The Realsimulator FSSB R3 base is used for Fly by Wire and it superb for precision. I have set the axis force to 4 lbs for both Pitch and Roll though I believe that it can be increased to 8 lbs or more but this is uncomfortable and not precise due to the micro adjustments. With the FSSB R3 base there are lots of options for selecting settings, see the link below for the manual in a ONEDRIVE directory. With the Realsimulator F18 CGRH the software allows for upto 8 channels for the grip switches. Each grip switch is 5 way, up/down, left/right and push including the micro joystick, which means if you program it then there are 40 selections available excluding the trigger. I am not sure whether you need the Thrustmaster Base to start with, I originally modified the Thrustmaster Base and used one of the cards in the FSSB R3, though do not know whether this is necessary with the current implementation

 

The Realsimulator F18 CGRH grip is superb quality the feel of the plastic is by far and away the best feel, the rough finish enhances the feel. The switches are all good quality, though the detent for the trigger 2 is heavy, at first I was not using it as it was so stiff I thought it had gone all the way. Note that there is no paddle lever with the F18 CGRH Grip. The mounting is a long aluminum collar that attaches to any Thrustmaster connection, e.g. the Vipril bases. I use a 10 cm Extension on the MonsterTech desk mount. The 10 cm extension is a special extension by Sahaj due to the internal dimensions of the collar. It will not fit over the Virpil 10 cm extension but will fit over the 20 cm curved extension.

 

The Realsimulator F16 CERH comes with an additional cable that mounts to the collar and ends in a standard USB so it can be plugged into any power source for remote VR use. I do not use the grip like this. When it is attached to the Virpil, Thrustmaster or Brunner base it draws power through the base and is recognised as its own devise as well as the selected base. i.e. it appears twice in my set up under different names. The grip is good and I prefer it over the F18 grip - again each switch is a 5 ways switch and the grip is mounted on the same aluminum collar. It can be programmed again with 8 channels - though this is only possible in the F16 grip and not in the base grip. I actually prefer the surface finish of the F18 grip even though the CE grip is hand finished and it does include the paddle lever. The F16 CE RH has roll and pitch axis as well as yaw capability but as i use it on a base the yaw is not present

 

In the ONEDRIVE folder you will see the manuals for the Realsimulator hardware and will get an idea of the capabilities and configurable options for the base and the grips - I will see that they take some reading, I also include some pictures of the set up of the grips and the base etc

 

The Brunner CLS-E Base is the preferred base for all warbirds and early jets that use hydraulics, due to the force feedback. The base is superbly accurate and precise as it relies on linear actuators (i assume) rather than mechanical cams so it is similar to the FSSB in that regard. It is a huge base at a commensurate cost, but for Warbirds and Hydraulic Jets it is unbeatable, for Fly By Wire it is just a precise base. In the ONEDRIVE there is a video of the Force Feedback in action for weapons in IL-2 and buffeting in Il-2 (same effect in DCS)

 

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AjnjfVEMwOnqjeM9uEPDCbzV5tAJiA?e=ujeP53

 

In summary I would recommend

Fly By Wire - Realsimulator FSSB and RealSimulator Grip

Warbirds - Realsimulator FSSB and RealSimulator Grip or VKB Gunfighter Mk III with MCG Ultimate Pro (with a standard MonsterTech mount no extension is needed)

 

Warbirds / Fly By Wire with understanding wife Brunner CLS-E with Realsimulator F16 RH or CE-RH

 

Very understanding Wife - all of the above

 

[Storm_ctrl]

On 4/7/2021 at 9:15 PM, streakeagle said:

I have both the WinWing and the VKB Gunfighter (both of my Gunfighters are Mk2s with full Mk3 upgrades).

 

 

 

Is your Winwing the Libra or Orion?

[streakeagle]

I have the original release of the Winwing Libra.