I want my old I-16 back!!!!!

[Doc3908]

I flew the "improved" I-16 for the first time last night and all I can say is "I want my old I-16 back!". The new I-16 flies like it's on rails (like the stupid I-16 in that other WW2 simulator). No trimming is needed at speeds above 300-320kph- the plane flies like it's on rails. That makes no sense: There are tons of reports that talk about the I-16 not being flyable hands-off at any speed. The old version had character that made it challenging, but it felt more realistic, more alive. Now the airplane feels sterile. 

 

Because the plane is mostly trimmed now, the flaps - even a tiny bit - make it balloon. In the old I-16, I used to get down to about 180-200kph, then drop about 18deg. of flaps and it leveled off nicely, allowing me to focus on deploying the landing gear. Now, at 200-220khp, with the gear fully down, the plane still flies more or less trimmed even without flaps. The nose starts do dip  down noticeably only once the airspeed decays down to about 160kph.

 

The landing itself feels "different" somehow, though I can't put my finger on it. On the old I-16, you had to dance on the rudder pedals once the wheels touch the ground to keep the bird going straight. Now there's much less "dancing" needed, but even after the plane has almost come to a stop (or during slow taxing), it swings from side to side in a weird way. Again, I can't really quantify this, just a feeling I got after doing a few landings. 

 

I know that people have been complaining about not being able to fly the plane hands-off and the lack of trim. Well, they certainly got their wish granted. For me, the new FM ruins the realism and immersion. I wish the developer could have two different versions - the old I-16 for people who crave realism and the new "self-trimming" version for those who insist on flying hands-off. 

 

Sorry about the rant, but I'm really frustrated to have lost one of my favorite DCS planes. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Doc3908

[-0303-]

You can't say "it flies on rails". It now flies somewhat straight at 420 km/h (MP 91 RPM 2200).  It mostly sideslips leftwards. I guess there is a speed where's it's straight (sideslipwise). At 200 km/h it noses down and sideslips right. With gear down it noses down at any speed.

 

I too noted the change in flaps. I used set to typically 22 degrees, never more than 30 or less than 20. Now (I have to experiment more) I set about 10 degrees. Full 60 degrees was ridiculous on the pre tweak as well. Did it work like that in real life I wonder? There's a number of flying I-16's. The truth is out there.

 

It's been tweaked clearly. I like to think they changed "ground adjustable trim tabs" assuming that's a real thing (*1). It seems odd the real thing would constantly need a large amount of back stick. This isn't necessarily the same thing as "can't fly hands off", neither can any non auto pilot plane. But if there is documentation "you always had to have stick back", yes this is how DCS I-16 should work. Bf 109 is "always stick forward".

 

Absolutely no "two versions", just make it as right as it can be.

Seems as squirrelly as ever on roll out after landing.

~

 

1) Ground adjustable trim tabs are a real thing. Comments have suggested the real I-16 had it.

Edited April 17, 2021 by -0303-

[Lace]

45 minutes ago, -0303- said:

This isn't necessarily the same thing as "can't fly hands off", neither can any non auto pilot plane.

 

 

Sorry but that is just wrong, any aircraft with positive stability which is correctly trimmed will fly hands-off.  No auto pilot required.

[-0303-]

Depends on definition of "hands off" and how long. I wouldn't take a nap. P-51 and Spitfire are stable ... for a while. "Positive stability", don't think either 51 or Spit have it. I do know there are planes that do but that's not the point of a fighter plane.

Edited April 17, 2021 by -0303-

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, Lace said:

Sorry but that is just wrong, any aircraft with positive stability which is correctly trimmed will fly hands-off.  No auto pilot required.

clearly you don’t have the I-16 .. this aircraft has no trim controls.

[Lace]

 

1 hour ago, -0303- said:

Depends on definition of "hands off" and how long. I wouldn't take a nap. P-51 and Spitfire are stable ... for a while. "Positive stability", don't think either 51 or Spit have it. I do know there are planes that do but that's not the point of a fighter plane.

 

 

Of course fighters were (are) built with neutral or even negative stability (especially with the advent of FBW computers) but your claim that it was not possible to fly any aircraft hands off without George helping was just plain wrong.

 

And taking a nap is inadvisable even with the autopilot on, they are pretty poor at RT and collision avoidance  

 

28 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

clearly you don’t have the I-16 .. this aircraft has no trim controls.

 

I don't, and being a fighter I doubt very much that it was designed to be positively stable.

[Doc3908]

On 4/17/2021 at 3:58 AM, -0303- said:

You can't say "it flies on rails". It now flies somewhat straight at 420 km/h (MP 91 RPM 2200).  It mostly sideslips leftwards. I guess there is a speed where's it's straight (sideslipwise). At 200 km/h it noses down and sideslips right. With gear down it noses down at any speed.

 

I too noted the change in flaps. I used set to typically 22 degrees, never more than 30 or less than 20. Now (I have to experiment more) I set about 10 degrees. Full 60 degrees was ridiculous on the pre tweak as well. Did it work like that in real life I wonder? There's a number of flying I-16's. The truth is out there.

 

It's been tweaked clearly. I like to think they changed "ground adjustable trim tabs" assuming that's a real thing (*1). It seems odd the real thing would constantly need a large amount of back stick. This isn't necessarily the same thing as "can't fly hands off", neither can any non auto pilot plane. But if there is documentation "you always had to have stick back", yes this is how DCS I-16 should work. Bf 109 is "always stick forward".

 

Absolutely no "two versions", just make it as right as it can be.

Seems as squirrelly as ever on roll out after landing.

~

 

1) Ground adjustable trim tabs are a real thing. Comments have suggested the real I-16 had it.

 

 You are right - at full throttle it slowly rolls CCW, and with 1/2 throttle and the airspeed decaying in the 250kph+ range it slowly rolls CW. Interestingly, if you are flying full throttle, and then easy off to about 3/4 or so, it actually pitches up. As for the gear down - I'll post a video of it flying hands off at about 220kph with no input from me, no roll, and the nose pointed a couple of degrees down (but not change in pitch). I really need to sit down and test it carefully and record all the quirks at various speeds, attitudes, and throttle settings. Either way, there are certain throttle settings/speed ranges, where the plane requires no back pressure on the control stick anymore. 

 

And I do agree that the ultimate goal will be to make the model fly as realistically as possible. There are several flying I-16s (in New Zealand, one in Madrid, Spain). I wonder if any of the pilots who fly the real thing are DCS fans and would consider collaborating with the developer. 

 

The trim tabs were added to the production Type 10. I can't find any info if they were retained in on the later types (I think Type 24 is modeled here???).

 

Either way, I hope the developers continue to improve this gem. I fly this mod more than all the other DCS warbirds combined. 

[Dragon1-1]

"Trim tabs" in the I-10 were nothing more than a few bits of metal that could be bent by the ground crew. It could be trimmed to fly at an exactly one pitch, power and radiator setting, which in the other WWII sim is set to a good configuration for level flight. As long as you fly these exact numbers, the deviations should be small.

 

The real thing was likely not flyable completely hands-off for any periods of time, but as long as you kept the stick steady with your knees (or in our case, have a joystick with centering springs) and flew the exact numbers it was trimmed to, it should be flyable enough without constant corrections.

[-0303-]

19 hours ago, Doc3908 said:

The trim tabs were added to the production Type 10. I can't find any info if they were retained in on the later types (I think Type 24 is modeled here???).

So there's document evidence it had "ground adjustable trim tabs". Statementys in the original I-16 thread were less concrete.

 

Quote

I wonder if any of the pilots who fly the real thing are DCS fans and would consider collaborating with the developer. 

I assume and would be disappointed if ED hadn't talked to an I-16 pilot. I had the impression that was a requirement for ED before releasing any module.

Edited April 20, 2021 by -0303-

[-0303-]

14 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

"Trim tabs" in the I-10 were nothing more than a few bits of metal that could be bent by the ground crew...

Spitfire did that too IIRC. From the either or both of the Spitfire test pilot biographies (Quill and Henshaw), they did this, if required, to every Spitfire off the production line (and after repairs). Bent little metal pieces on the wings to make them fly straight.

 

Which also suggests to me this was a practice done to lots of (all?) airplanes at the time. Still do I suspect.

 

Quote

 

It could be trimmed to fly at an exactly one pitch, power and radiator setting, which in the other WWII sim is set to a good configuration for level flight. As long as you fly these exact numbers, the deviations should be small.

 

The real thing was likely not flyable completely hands-off for any periods of time, but as long as you kept the stick steady with your knees (or in our case, have a joystick with centering springs) and flew the exact numbers it was trimmed to, it should be flyable enough without constant corrections.

 

Agreed, makes perfect sense.

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by -0303-

[Dragon1-1]

1 hour ago, -0303- said:

Spitfire did that too IIRC. From the either or both of the Spitfire test pilot biographies (Quill and Henshaw), they did this, if required, to every Spitfire off the production line (and after repairs). Bent little metal pieces on the wings to make them fly straight.

This was to correct manufacturing issues, Spitfire had both rudder and elevator trim, there would be no need to touch the tabs after production. German fighters needed bendable trim tabs for rudder and ailerons, since they only way to trim them was adjusting the entire tailplane.

[JAPman]

I don't know about the old one, but it would be nice to have the current flight model with the option for easy flight. Drift flying along the river with the current model is not a bad idea.