F14 instant action BVR On the devil's end AIM54 problem

[Macias671603]

Good Day Pilots

 

Just want to ask if anybody can try to engage two migs 29 in instant mission "on the devil's end." Syria

 

I dont know what is going on or what I'm doing wrong. Simple engage with Aim's 54 no matter wich version no matter which mode, no matter which altitude and distance. Missiles stop tracking like 1.5 miles before targets. And the funny part is... that the bandits are not even going defensive. Just little bit notch.  Im not saying that this is bug,  im only asking if somebody can replay this mission and report his results.

 

Many thanks

Cheers

 

 

[Eagle7907]

Would they normally notch at missile launch? This really confuses me, because before 2.7, the AI didn’t notch right after launch. I think that’s why Fox 3s are having more difficulty for a kill. The constant notching after launch hinders the track/re-acquire therefore the misses.


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[Macias671603]

The AI seems to notice the launch even from 45 miles out and start easy notch tho....

[Eagle7907]

Right. That’s what I am saying. It seems the AI have telepathy and knows when a Fox 3 has launched. They didn’t do that before, hence they have a head start to defeat missiles. I am now very confused as to what is right and wrong now.


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[draconus]

Not long ago ED implemented this AI behavior as a simulation of defence against possible silent shots. Something a smart pilot would do dealing with TWS capable opponent.

[Eagle7907]

Interesting. I didn’t know there was a way to know when a launch occurred beside seeing a smoke trail.

Oh well, I guess long shots are a thing of the past again against super-human AI.


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[draconus]

The AI technically knows. The human has to assume. The result is the same.

[Eagle7907]

Right. I can understand completely if the AI constantly notches left and right before a missile launch, but the AI just “knowing” kind of kills the realism because no human can know in regards to TWS until a pit bull.


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[draconus]

Of course it can be improved but I'm glad they started with something like this.

Edited May 14, 2021 by draconus

[captain_dalan]

On 5/11/2021 at 10:34 AM, Macias671603 said:

Good Day Pilots

 

Just want to ask if anybody can try to engage two migs 29 in instant mission "on the devil's end." Syria

 

I dont know what is going on or what I'm doing wrong. Simple engage with Aim's 54 no matter wich version no matter which mode, no matter which altitude and distance. Missiles stop tracking like 1.5 miles before targets. And the funny part is... that the bandits are not even going defensive. Just little bit notch.  Im not saying that this is bug,  im only asking if somebody can replay this mission and report his results.

 

Many thanks

Cheers

 

 

Weird...i flew that mission some time ago and didn't experience any issues. But will try again tonight, maybe things have changed in the meantime.....

[captain_dalan]

Here's my attempt. The first one completely botched, but the second one just barely did it!
 

 

On 5/12/2021 at 8:49 PM, draconus said:

Not long ago ED implemented this AI behavior as a simulation of defence against possible silent shots. Something a smart pilot would do dealing with TWS capable opponent.

Meh, any AI behavior that ends up in unrealistic and non-authentic tactics just to make things work is an insult to this  game being called a sim. Especially when proper tactics no longer work. ED might as well give us pea shooters or slings and spears if every fight against an AI ends up in a merge.

[Cpt. Weber]

On 5/14/2021 at 9:26 AM, draconus said:

The AI technically knows. The human has to assume. The result is the same.

It's totally not the same - if you assume and you're wrong, you're only making your position worse, by giving the opponent a window of oppportunity to push closer as HE knows, that he didn't fire. And he did not waste any ordnance.

The AI knows when you launch, starts immidiate chaff employment (?!) and goes evasive. He acts directly agaist your missile and only when you launch. He will not make a mistake in evading a supposed launch where there was none. Thus he always reacts 100% correctly to the situation, where his knowledge should be limited.

 

In this case, TWS shots totally lose all their tactical sense, whatsoever. 

[AH_Solid_Snake]

Yes it does, and it’s kinda the point. Any competent pilot that knows an F14 has them illuminated and also knows the range of the AIM54 will throw in a check turn every so often specifically to trash your TWS shot if it’s in the air. 
 

You can always send your wingman after number 2 and go STT then offset and hold your f-pole. Perfectly realistic.

[Cpt. Weber]

14 hours ago, AH_Solid_Snake said:

Yes it does, and it’s kinda the point. Any competent pilot that knows an F14 has them illuminated and also knows the range of the AIM54 will throw in a check turn every so often specifically to trash your TWS shot if it’s in the air. 
 

You can always send your wingman after number 2 and go STT then offset and hold your f-pole. Perfectly realistic.

The problem is, how does the AI MiG-23 or 29 or Su-27, with it's relatively limited RWR, know, it's being painted by an F-14 and not something else?

This omniscient AI solution to try to simulate expected behaviour is not a good solution.

[sublime]

I just flew it and thought it was almost to easy. One aim 54 for each mig one definitely got hit.  The other supposedly fled.  I got distracted trolling the Syrian AD after that so idk

[AH_Solid_Snake]

20 hours ago, Cpt. Weber said:

The problem is, how does the AI MiG-23 or 29 or Su-27, with it's relatively limited RWR, know, it's being painted by an F-14 and not something else?

This omniscient AI solution to try to simulate expected behaviour is not a good solution.

Lets imagine they are following Soviet doctrine and have GCI support? 

 

I think the Phoenix has some obvious limitations with the sharp transition to PN tracking at the end of the flight and I don't claim the DCS AI is perfect. But I think manage expectations for being a 1 ship murder machine?

[Cpt. Weber]

20 minutes ago, AH_Solid_Snake said:

Lets imagine they are following Soviet doctrine and have GCI support? 

 

I think the Phoenix has some obvious limitations with the sharp transition to PN tracking at the end of the flight and I don't claim the DCS AI is perfect. But I think manage expectations for being a 1 ship murder machine?

Sure, but I'm really not expecting the single F-14 to be a murder machine, nor find this mission this thread refers to hard to do, tbh.

I'm here only, because I don't like how the new changes of the AI behaviour are shaping. It seems much like faking the difficulty by making AI omniscent.

I would also argue, the immidiate usage of chaff can also fiddle with the modeling of the missiles itself, where ED now has to take the strange behaviour they created themselves into account while modeling the chaff resistance of the Fox-3s.

I have doubts about this kind of realism.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Cpt. Weber

[Lurker]

On 5/14/2021 at 9:26 AM, draconus said:

The AI technically knows. The human has to assume. The result is the same.

 

I'm sorry, and please don't take this personally but this is complete and utter hogwash. 

[Mike789]

Caution Spoilers. Ive been playing Reforger the past few days and as soon as I got to mission 5 and 6 where there some A2A action, I started having issues. Cannot get a single kill with Phoenix from several different ranges.  It’s tracking because it lofts but then just seems to be easily beaten.  I invariable end up eating an r27 before I can get a sparrow off the rail.  It’s really ruined the sim for me along with the AMRAAM issues.  

Edited May 18, 2021 by Mike789
Spelling

[captain_dalan]

On 5/17/2021 at 11:13 PM, AH_Solid_Snake said:

Lets imagine they are following Soviet doctrine and have GCI support? 

 

I think the Phoenix has some obvious limitations with the sharp transition to PN tracking at the end of the flight and I don't claim the DCS AI is perfect. But I think manage expectations for being a 1 ship murder machine?

Eh? The AI reacts this way fired at by R-77, AIM-120, AIM-9, R-73........ virtually by anything that it shouldn't know it's being fired upon. This makes the AI's useless in portrayal of any kind of believable threat. By which i don't mean they aren't a threat, cause they are. It's just that fighting them in any authentic manner leads to failure. It's a scenario very similar to how some gen II and gen III fighters, because of their silly flight models (when flown by AI's) are more of a threat in BFM then the gen IV aircraft. It completely makes the mission ..... well, not believable, though surely more challenging. Now, if you like that approach to making the missions more challenging, more power to you. Some however, do not. Personally, i feel the same like making a Formula 1 race track full of bumps, so it will be more...... difficult. It most certainly will be. But it's no longer a Formula 1 race track

[draconus]

7 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

The AI reacts this way fired at by R-77, AIM-120, AIM-9, R-73........ virtually by anything that it shouldn't know it's being fired upon.

What about AI that didn't detect you yet? Ie. start behind him with radar off and shoot a heater.

[Lurker]

On 5/17/2021 at 2:14 AM, Cpt. Weber said:

The problem is, how does the AI MiG-23 or 29 or Su-27, with it's relatively limited RWR, know, it's being painted by an F-14 and not something else?

This omniscient AI solution to try to simulate expected behaviour is not a good solution.

 

This pretty much. This game is hard enough without the AI resorting to cheating. And if we want to include "realism" in the discussion, then this type of behavior is even worse. With that said, if this is indeed the approach that Eagle Dynamics have taken then I guess I will have to forego single-player air-to-air combat entirely, and just stick to PvP servers. 

 

Bye, bye meticulously designed Heatblur campaigns. I feel bad for your mission & campaign designers. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Lurker

[draconus]

41 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I guess I will have to forego single-player air-to-air combat entirely

Doesn't look like you play SP anyway. I play and I can tell you not much have changed. The missiles sometimes miss - so act accordingly. Please don't exaggerate to make a point.

[captain_dalan]

12 hours ago, draconus said:

What about AI that didn't detect you yet? Ie. start behind him with radar off and shoot a heater.

I don't think there's a reliable way to know the AI hasn't figured out that. I mean, i guess it always knows, or at least it did, but i think ED implemented blind spots. The AI does kick flares though even when not fired at. A single kick BTW. Beats me why......