What is the optimal way to use the R-27ER?

[cobrabase]

I'm really finding it to be quite useless against AI pilots. I must not be using it correctly. I find it to be so easily spoofed. I'm treating it like a long-range sparrow.

 

Like... okay, easily fooled AND long range... WOW! Now I can make nice long white smoke trails!!

[monotwix]

FC managed to bring BVR somewhat closer than 1.02.

Tacview as the leaning and analysing tool shows what R-27ER does, and with that idea just sit back and learn, or fire them all and turn 180 degrees.

Download the tacview to begin with.

In my view the R-27ER does work for some one who does nothing or some one who can do nothing (nowhere to fly from it).

[A.S]

Lock, shoot, keep lock and kill :pilotfly:

 

ER has a very good range and is very maneuverable...so play it out.

Its a nice missiles to set up the fight up down to NOZ (no escape zone).

 

You problem might be using it while keeping lock and staying defensive against inbounds....well thats your part. :smilewink:

[cobrabase]

Lock, shoot, keep lock and kill :pilotfly:

 

ER has a very good range and is very maneuverable...so play it out.

Its a nice missiles to set up the fight up down to NOZ (no escape zone).

 

You problem might be using it while keeping lock and staying defensive against inbounds....well thats your part. :smilewink:

 

I can launch it all day at not even max range and the thing just flies stupid on me. One puff of chaff from an enemy mig 29 and the R-27ER will fly to Saturn.

[Kuky]

get yourself bellow your target's altitude so they can't notch you

[Pilotasso]

I can launch it all day at not even max range and the thing just flies stupid on me. One puff of chaff from an enemy mig 29 and the R-27ER will fly to Saturn.

 

get yourself bellow your target's altitude so they can't notch you

 

If you have advantage I.e not head to head gauntlets, you have all the time in the world to wait for mistakes. Fire one and let him spend his countermeasures like crazy. The next 2 missiles will have much greater chances of hitting :)

 

Shooting above 25Km will almost for certain give the target enough time do break your lock since he also has space to turn and notch. So you have to wait untill last second before he knows where you are. Dont wait too long and get fired upon first, thats a bad thing too.

[cobrabase]

get yourself bellow your target's altitude so they can't notch you

 

But won't that extend the range of my target's weapons? Higher altitude = longer range?

[ScEBlack1]

Yes, but at the same time it gives your opponent the ability to notch and break your lock or hit the deck, spend a few chaffs and your missile is now useless. Try firing one at high altitude, notch while decreasing altitude then fire another soon after while dropping altitude. Keep bandit on the defensive with the ER while you press forward with your ET.

[cobrabase]

Yes, but at the same time it gives your opponent the ability to notch and break your lock or hit the deck, spend a few chaffs and your missile is now useless. Try firing one at high altitude, notch while decreasing altitude then fire another soon after while dropping altitude. Keep bandit on the defensive with the ER while you press forward with your ET.

 

Okay... it's times like these that I wish I flew LOMAC more and skippered SHIV less.

 

Someone explain "the notch."

[RvEYoda]

Keep missile above target, keep emitter below.

 

Essentially. Shoot from slightly above, then dive on gimbals down below

him....AI dies very quick. (also works to some degree online)

[cobrabase]

Keep missile above target, keep emitter below.

 

Essentially. Shoot from slightly above, then dive on gimbals down below

him....AI dies very quick. (also works to some degree online)

 

 

Oh! Is this because of ground clutter?!! Best to have an empty sky behind your target?!

 

So... launch high because longer range and because once it passes below him it will have ZERO smash to turn into him?

 

Emit LOW so that there's no ground clutter?

 

Am I right?

Edited October 6, 2008 by cobrabase

[cobrabase]

Yes, but at the same time it gives your opponent the ability to notch and break your lock or hit the deck, spend a few chaffs and your missile is now useless. Try firing one at high altitude, notch while decreasing altitude then fire another soon after while dropping altitude. Keep bandit on the defensive with the ER while you press forward with your ET.

 

Why does this work in real life? I mean... I know that you have to go in closer to use your infrared seekers on the R-27ET but why does the altitude have such an effect?

Edited October 6, 2008 by cobrabase

[ScEBlack1]

Well to be real honest i dont know, im only a simmer and not a real life fighter pilot, but, as far as what i have read on the subject of air to air bvr combat, yes, this does work and is used by pilots. There are many parts to the whole so depending on the situation different tactics are needed. Air density, 2 ship, 3 ship fights, weather, ground clutter or over water, awacs or not all have a part to play in the set up of a real life fight. There are lots of posts about the "Notch" on here, best bet is to use the search function and you can read all about it and how to perform it, basicaly it is putting the enemy on your 3 or 9 position, dropping some altitude and breaking his radar lock so you are not visible for a time on his radar, this way you can manuever to set up a kill by different means, ex: change altitude, press in closer, obtain pure pursuit etc, etc. The basic BVR engagement phases are this: Detect, Sort, Target, Intercept, Engagae, Seperate. Hope this helps, there are many on here who are more expierienced than me and im sure they will chime in.

[RvEYoda]

Oh! Is this because of ground clutter?!! Best to have an empty sky behind your target?!

 

So... launch high because longer range and because once it passes below him it will have ZERO smash to turn into him?

 

Emit LOW so that there's no ground clutter?

 

Am I right?

 

Yes start optimize over these two parameters,

then expand the equation to more. Usually enough to have

just a few hundred meters altitude advantage, then Dive 50 degrees down

(keeping a 10-20 degree gimbal buffer on target angle for unforseen maneuvering)

and watch his speed, aspect and especially altitude closely. Try to keep 500-1000 m below

him after that for a good buffer.

 

Can be good to set up a few training missions where you just do these things over and over again.

Remember also you need good speed (but not too much) to dive faster than your opponent.

Surprise is a key element as well (although not very effective vs AI ;))

 

Oh yeah and if your look-up angle is more than 30-35 degrees above horizon?

Then just fire regardless of what your DLZ looks. At this point he is so close and soo

well in the look-up situation, your ER will be really deadly

Edited October 6, 2008 by =RvE=Yoda

[GGTharos]

A quick explanation of the notch:

 

The doppler notch is the price you pay for look-down shoot-down capability.

 

As you probably know, the radar detects doppler shift and filters out anything that would create a frequency shift equal to the radar's own ground-speed. You can't filter exactly '541 kts' because a small speed change, a gust of wind across some leaves (causing extra targets to appear), and HARDWARE INABILITY TO BE THAT EXACT prevent you from doing so. You're going to filter 541kts +/- 47 kts (that is the f-15 search notch, and it is considered fairly tight ... the russian birds have a wider one) along the radar beam.

 

Once an aircraft turns perpendicular to the radar beam, its closure to your radar becomes closer and closer to that of the ground, it will enter the notch (That closure range between 494kts and 588kts, and your radar will cease tracking it.

 

This is ONLY true in the presence of ground clutter. If you're looking up, there's no ground clutter to detect ... UNLESS the bandit deploys chaff - yes, chaff creates 'ground clutter' 'up there', though to actually enough clutter to notch up there (against a bandit that's STT on you, not search) you'd need to fly into a chaff cloud, making it a preventive measure, not so much a defensive one.

[cobrabase]

Surprise is a key element as well (although not very effective vs AI ;))

 

 

But.... launching high and emitting low will improve the accuracy of the missile?! Wow! I didn't know LOMAC's logic even modeled ground clutter.

[GGTharos]

It's very basic modeling of ground clutter. Don't get too excited about it, just know it and use it :)

[RvEYoda]

it does :)

[mibsk]

Let's not forget about Ironhand's site ...

Go here: http://flankertraining.com/ ... click,click,click ... go to Tutorials -> Air to Air ... and watch it in action ... then practice ... ;-)

 

(VIDEO :: R-27ER VS AIM-120: Winning the SARH vs ARH Duel,

VIDEO :: ALAMO VS AMRAAM; MiG-29 vs F-16C ... etc.

[ScEBlack1]

This is my opinion only but in the F-15 which is my ride it is a bit difficult (for me that is) to notch well because she is best up high and not down low were the migs usually are, so when you start up high then wish to notch a bandit and drop below his alt to perform the notch you become dangerously low for the Eagle and sometimes get picked up by the EOS flyers in the valleys, any tips on performing the notch in the Eagle is appreciated, i do understand situational awareness is a key but im looking for more tips from good Eagle flyers, thanks.

[RvEYoda]

With lockon's super EOS range..well....

if you want to notch a russian plane. I suggest that you do this.

 

Get below, slow down, beam, and engine to idle.

This usually works.

[Cosmonaut]

But won't that extend the range of my target's weapons? Higher altitude = longer range?

 

Shoot high and then get below your target. If you shoot about 2 or 3K meters above AI then F-pole left/right and nose down while keeping an eye on your targets altitude which is displayed on your HUD then you can get rmax kills quite regularly aginst AI. 2K meters below him shoot do the trick.

[RedTiger]

Depending on what platform you are fighting, you can afford to get well inside Rmax against the AI, even when you are lower than him. You can make up for it with a sprint above Mach 1. If you move around a bit, either up and down or switching from cold to hot (that is to say flying away from the bandit while you F-pole and then switching to flying towards) and get fairly low (2000 meters is good), his first missile will have difficulty reaching you, even if you've sustained your sprint well after launch (if you're fighting a slammer, you can even get away with starting this AFTER it goes active, although my BS alarm goes off at that and I don't wait that long ;) )

 

Give this a try; after you've digested the concept of F-pole, the notch, and how all this effects the BVR fight, try using regular R-27s. You'll be handicapping yourself quite a bit, but it will make you better with the ERs. If you want to make it even harder on yourself, fly the MiG-29A. You have no jammer (not that this matters against the AI anyways), precious little fuel, and you only have TWO shots before you're going to have to start notching hardcore to force WVR.

Edited October 6, 2008 by RedTiger

[cobrabase]

This is such a great community. I really appreciate not being laughed off the map. Some online sites the people would just look at a question of "the notch" as an insult. I 've heard of the term and knew it was a radar blind spot but I had forgotten it was due to doppler effect. Just rusty I guess. The ground clutter is something I never thought was modeled so I disregarded it. Shame on me for watching History Channel's "dogfights" on DVD and not considering "Duke" Cunningham downing MiGs with the sparrow (booo!) only when they had an empty sky behind them.

 

I came home early today (wife in bed sick... okay but not well). Took care of her and then decided to try what you gents recommended to me when I had some time. It bloody works! Wow do those Alamos track now! I was only able to fly a bit before duty called but this is so encouraging. Once again this little international group of cyber aviators shows how bright it can shine. Thanks guys.

 

"Fighter Combat" by Robert Shaw (circa 1985) arrived today from Amazon. In between grading high school papers I'll escape into a good tutoring.

[cobrabase]

Well... didn't go as well as I had hoped today. I set up a training mission and practiced forever. My wife was VERY understanding. :pilotfly:

 

I played the scenario initially against 2 MiG 29s with excellent AI pilots. I was leader of a 2-ship. I started off at 2800 meters and the fulcrums at 2000 meters. I have jammers and the MiG 29As didn't. I played the scenario at least 18 times with these parameters and I couldn't hit a single aircraft with the R-27RE. That's right... not one.

 

Now... TACview showed that the missiles were tracking much better but none were hitting. I was whacked time and time again.

 

I was on the verge of suicide so I switched to random AI in the MiGs and the fangs came out. I started getting more aggressive. Once the AI was set for random I started winning engagements about a third of the time. FINALLY one R-27RE HIT and killed a bandit. Sometimes the bandits would stick together and not separate. I would then make a 75 degree turn to the left or right to try to separate them. Usually it wouldn't work and I'd have to order my wingman to simply engage bandits and THAT would cause them to separate.

 

Usually the leader would stay at around 1800 meters. If I went after him then I'd let an Alamo go at 2600 meter altitude and then dive for the deck at 50 degrees. About half way down I'd let another another one loose and give myself between 600 and 1000 meters altitude between us. Usually these shots would force him to turn and at times even run! When he would turn I would pour on the burner relight and try to maneuver behind him. Usually he would show me he flank and I'd fire a third Alamo. Tacview would show that the first and third would be close but would fail to hit.

 

At this point either I'd pop an TE at him and smack him while dodging his wingman's shot (because my wingman is an A-hole).

 

OR he'd turn into me and pop me in the face with an R-73. This usually was followed by extreme profanity from me.

 

The second scenario involved me going after the wingman who dropped down to 300 meters altitude. I saw this happening and after learning about the ground clutter effect I dove down to the deck to try to get a clearer shot at him. We end up trading Alamo shots (his is an R while I manage to shoot first with an RE). I then either get into ET range or even R-73 range.

 

I've heard a barrel roll can be a great way to dodge a missile. This true? Any further advice?

Edited October 8, 2008 by cobrabase