Chain gun: Effective engagement ranges?

[AlphaOneSix]

39 minutes ago, Hummingbird said:

My immediate reaction watching the video was that the Mi28's gun system lacks a "stabilization/lock on terrain" feature. 

 

My immediate reaction was that the vast majority of that footage was not of an Mi-28.

[Hummingbird]

There is also this one, where the gun is fired at the end, and again it seems to scatter everywhere: 

 

Same near the end of this video:

 

Edited September 15, 2021 by Hummingbird

[Hummingbird]

Indeed it's definitely not any form of conclusive proof of the accuracy of the Mi28's gun system, it's sadly just the only thing available, and if it's anything to go by then it showcases some pretty horrible accuracy - i.e. not even remotely approaching the accuracy of the AH64's gun system.

 

The AH64 seems to be accurate within a 20x20m box out to 1.5-2 km, and same for the Eurocopter Tiger which I've also seen some very impressive gun cam footage from.

 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2021 by Hummingbird

[Rogue Trooper]

On 9/13/2021 at 12:44 PM, S. Low said:

You a little upset that the Apache’s systems are better than the shark’s?

Depends. For guns only;

If you are in a apache and go toe to toe head on with a shark, I reckon you are doomed.

If you go toe to toe with a hind with its double Kannon set to high rate of massive firepower..... For sure you are doomed. 

 

For cannon agility in a spiralling chopper dog fight.... that would be a fantastic way to find out who is king!

 

On 9/14/2021 at 2:47 PM, fargo007 said:

The Apache's 30mm may not be as capable from a pure ballistic standpoint, but I have no problem at all finding several dozen videos showing just how great it works on actual places, vehicles, and real people. Truly hours of footage.

 

I can't find even one example of Russian 30mm being used on actual targets but I would love to see it.

 

These were obviously designed with different goals and use cases, so it's not a contest to begin with.

 

The best part:  We're getting them all!  (MUAAAHAHAHAHA)

Agreed, horses for courses!

 

we will get them all MUAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

[Rogue Trooper]

On 9/14/2021 at 4:58 PM, jubuttib said:

I have been interested in and pretty dubious about the accuracy of the Mi-28 implementation to be honest. The gun at high rate of fire has the equivalent of somewhere around 1 000 lbs of thrust, and it's mounted fully below the helicopter on a turret (which does look pretty hefty at least). I'd imagine it wouldn't be that horrible shooting straight ahead, but slew it sideways at all and you'd probably be dealing with a lot of movement in the heli.

 

EDIT: Are you talking about the one titled "Mi-28 helicopter attacks ISIS / Daesh terrorists"? At some points in the video the dispersion looks pretty tight actually (the lines they're "drawing" are neat, rounds hitting at steady intervals and not veering off of the line), but they're slewing the damn thing all over the shop. =/

 

Agreed, but the MI-28's Kannon is also mounted well forward on the nose to help clear the fixed landing gear.

This massive Kannon's firepower, when traversed to shooting 90 degrees left, creates a massive force that is multiplied by the distance from its centre of gravity. This creates a massive turning force on the airframe which effects the Kannon's accuracy.

The Apache designers understood this and went for the bigger 30mm projectile (more explosive filling) with lower range (less muzzle velocity, smaller cartridge)... the apache is more of a compromise for defending herself over a shorter range but doing it more accurately over 180 degrees (?) of cannon movement (relative to its nose). 

 

I for one am looking forward to eyeballing my enemies at 500 yards left to direction of travel, dropping my monocle sighting system onto them and laying waste to them quickly and efficiently... a touch more lead here and there perhaps.... but generally.....really good fun stuff. Truly looking forward to this superb Attack Helicopter...... probably the best in the world.

 

But as a side note: I do like Russian hyper ballistic guided missiles. I like em alot, I can find no weakness in their design, the missiles are just coming faster than yours.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Rogue Trooper

[jubuttib]

22 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

The AH64 seems to be accurate within a 20x20m box out to 1.5-2 km, and same for the Eurocopter Tiger which I've also seen some very impressive gun cam footage from.

Based on the document from 1995 on the first page, wasn't it more like 75% hitting in a 50x50m box at 1 000 meters, based on real life testing?

Edited September 16, 2021 by jubuttib

[Sobakopes]

Gun problem on mi28 has been fixed in mi28nm. The old cannon used analog correction which weren't fast enough to react to recoil 

[Lurker]

14 hours ago, jubuttib said:

Based on the document from 1995 on the first page, wasn't it more like 75% hitting in a 50x50m box at 1 000 meters, based on real life testing?

 

 

Yes, but that's only looking at a 50x50m box. So if 75% of the rounds hit inside that box, how many of those 75% hit inside a 20x20m box? How many inside a 10x10m box, and how many inside a 5x5m box? The answer is not 0. Which is all that matters. 

Edited September 17, 2021 by Lurker

[Sobakopes]

At 1000 m

1.3% inside a 5×5 m box. 

5.2% inside a 10x10 m box

75% inside a 50x50 m box

 

I did much better with a gosh302 cannon. However of course I need to do gun run manually so perhaps it's less safe and takes some effort. 

Edited September 17, 2021 by Sobakopes

[Volk.]

On 9/15/2021 at 7:06 PM, Hummingbird said:

Indeed it's definitely not any form of conclusive proof of the accuracy of the Mi28's gun system, it's sadly just the only thing available, and if it's anything to go by then it showcases some pretty horrible accuracy - i.e. not even remotely approaching the accuracy of the AH64's gun system.

The last two clips posted were from 3km distance, which is leagues different from most AH gun cam footage from 1km +/- 200m. Not sure if anyone has M230 footage from 3 clicks - would be interesting to see. From what I understand after 1.7km those rounds really go astray.

 

Supposedly the Mi-28, well at least the N or earlier versions didn't have great dispersion, and noted for off-bore lack of accuracy compared, but as others wrote, it's got massive recoil far from the CG. Think it only carries ~250-300 rounds though, all housed inside that fat turret, hence it's slower turning speed. No idea on it's abilities to track/stabilise or make fine corrections. I think the pilots can guide it by helmet, but unsure if they have a helmet display.

[IcedVenom]

On 9/14/2021 at 6:47 AM, fargo007 said:

The best part:  We're getting them all!  (MUAAAHAHAHAHA)

Truly the best part

On 9/14/2021 at 7:22 AM, WinterH said:

Also worth noting that in Mi-24 we don't even have HE rounds at all for now, for some reason, making the gun borderline useless against blobs of infantry sadly. M230 won't have that problem because literally the only round it uses is a "do it all" round.

Thankfully we now have HE rounds for the Mi-24P

[jubuttib]

On 9/17/2021 at 9:46 AM, Lurker said:

 

Yes, but that's only looking at a 50x50m box. So if 75% of the rounds hit inside that box, how many of those 75% hit inside a 20x20m box? How many inside a 10x10m box, and how many inside a 5x5m box? The answer is not 0. Which is all that matters. 

I would argue it matters at least a bit. With the nubmers Sobakopes listed, putting them in a chart and finding a best fit polynomial curve for them I'd guesstimate the 20x20m box at 1000 meters have about ~17% hit rate. So you shoot enough dakka, you will hit something in there, but if the hit rate is around lets says 15-20% at 1000 meters, I wouldn't even call the gun "accurate" for hitting a 20x20m box at 1000 meters, much less "accurate within a 20x20m box out to 1.5-2 km".

 

I guess my definition of accuracy could well just be a bit different, I'd at least want over half of my rounds impacting the area I'm targeting to call the weapon "accurate" at those specs. This of course doesn't mean that it's USELESS at that distance, that would be a totally different thing.

[Hummingbird]

At 1310m the spread looks pretty tight, first rounds seem right on target:

 

The targeting & tracking system probably recieved many improvements since 1995.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Hummingbird

[AlphaOneSix]

On 9/29/2021 at 6:11 PM, Hummingbird said:

At 1310m the spread looks pretty tight, first rounds seem right on target:

 

The targeting & tracking system probably recieved many improvements since 1995.

 

 

If you're looking at the same timestamp I'm looking at...that's ~800 meters. 1310 is the aircraft's altitude in feet.

[Hummingbird]

1 hour ago, AlphaOneSix said:

 

If you're looking at the same timestamp I'm looking at...that's ~800 meters. 1310 is the aircraft's altitude in feet.

 

Odd, because ir seems like it takes the rounds over 2 sec to reach the target. 

[AlphaOneSix]

8 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

 

Odd, because ir seems like it takes the rounds over 2 sec to reach the target. 

 

Well then it's best to say we just don't know the range. The range in the computer is 794 meters and during the video we don't see him lasing for a new range, so we don't really know the exact range.

[Hummingbird]

1 hour ago, AlphaOneSix said:

 

Well then it's best to say we just don't know the range. The range in the computer is 794 meters and during the video we don't see him lasing for a new range, so we don't really know the exact range.

 

I didn't  know that reading on the right was altitude, but based on bullet travel time it coincidently seems that the actual range was infact between 1300-1500 meters.

 

That said, here's a video of shooting at a lased 1300+ m distance, again the dispersion is pretty tight (2:32 min):

 

Edited October 8, 2021 by Hummingbird