Why the P-61-B/C deserves to be in the game

[Blitz1293]

Ok, so I am a HUGE fan of the P-61 Black Widow that Northrop developed during the Second World War, for lots of reasons. Despite being introduced late in the war due to some production issues on Northrops end, it was fairly successful despite existing in a very target deficient environment, and was well loved by the crews that operated in her. It was used both as an interceptor, and ground pounder.

 

Despite having a post war reputation for being sluggish, this was not the opinion at the time among those who flew her. In one instance it famously out ran an RAF Mosquito in a friendly competition. This is to say despite its size, it was a very capable aircraft in the heavy fighter/nightfighter roll. Unfortunately the early A models were plagued with issues that limited their ability and applicability. Thankfully, later A models, and especially the B/C models fixed most of the issues it had that often are only revealed with combat data.

 

This is a long winded way to arrive at why I believe it's a perfect fit for DCS.

•  With the upcoming release of the infamous de Havilland Mosquito, the precedent for heavy fighters is officially established. Obviously I wouldn't expect the P-61 to be the next heavy fighter in the game, as there are other more influential heavy fighters from other nations that should be implemented. Both the Japanese and Germans fielded large fleets of diverse heavy fighters for a variety of mission types. But, the P-61 should in my opinion be seriously considered because...
•  It offers several unique gameplay opportunities. The first being aerial radar. It was the first plane specifically designed to take advantage of radar. It also had a gunner who sat aft of the cockpit. Both the gunner and the radio/radar operator could aim and control the dorsal 360° turret, that had 90° elevation. They could aim it with swiveling posts attached to their seats that had gyroscopic collimator sight assemblies, and the triggers. The pilot also had the option to lock the turret forward for more forward fire power. Needless to say both the radar/radio operator and the gunner would provide fairly unique gameplay opportunities compared to other WW2 planes, especially among fighters/heavy fighters. 
•  Imagine you and your buddies are dispatched at night to intercept a flight of bombers. You take off and climb to altitude. Your buddy on the radar guides you to your target, then you dive down on your surprised foe as you and the gunner open up on them with your 4 20 mm cannons and 4 .50 browing machine guns. Or, its day time and you are dispatched with a few thousand lbs of bombs to raid enemy supply lines and support allied efforts on the front. The team dynamics, and the mission types you could run present unique gameplay loops and I believe that would be only a good thing for the game. 

 

This is all to say that the P-61 is an incredibly beautiful, and unique aircraft that would bring its own flavor to a game that seems to have been designed to implement it. Its unfortunate production issues prevented it from being implemented earlier in the war, as I believe like the Mosquito it would have proved to be a versatile platform, and would have a similar lasting mythology associated with it. Build this aircraft for the game, and I think you would have a lot of new fans of one of the coolest planes ever built. I know I for one would spend a irresponsible amount of money for the chance to sit in her cockpit.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Blitz1293
Grammatical and spelling errors

[Mogster]

12 hours ago, Blitz1293 said:

Ok, so I am a HUGE fan of the P-61 Black Widow that Northrop developed during the Second World War, for lots of reasons. Despite being introduced late in the war due to some production issues on Northrops end, it was fairly successful despite existing in a very target deficient environment, and was well loved by the crews that operated in her. It was used both as an interceptor, and ground pounder.

 

Despite having a post war reputation for being sluggish, this was not the opinion at the time among those who flew her. In one instance it famously out ran an RAF Mosquito in a friendly competition. This is to say despite its size, it was a very capable aircraft in the heavy fighter/nightfighter roll. Unfortunately the early A models were plagued with issues that limited their ability and applicability. Thankfully, later A models, and especially the B/C models fixed most of the issues it had that often are only revealed with combat data.

 

This is a long winded way to arrive at why I believe it's a perfect fit for DCS.

•  With the upcoming release of the infamous de Havilland Mosquito, the precedent for heavy fighters is officially established. Obviously I wouldn't expect the P-61 to be the next heavy fighter in the game, as there are other more influential heavy fighters from other nations that should be implemented. Both the Japanese and Germans fielded large fleets of diverse heavy fighters for a variety of mission types. But, the P-61 should in my opinion be seriously considered because...
•  It offers several unique gameplay opportunities. The first being aerial radar. It was the first plane specifically designed to take advantage of radar. It also had a gunner who sat aft of the cockpit. Both the gunner and the radio/radar operator could aim and control the dorsal 360° turret, that had 90° elevation. They could aim it with swiveling posts attached to their seats that had gyroscopic collimator sight assemblies, and the triggers. The pilot also had the option to lock the turret forward for more forward fire power. Needless to say both the radar/radio operator and the gunner would provide fairly unique gameplay opportunities compared to other WW2 planes, especially among fighters/heavy fighters. 
•  Imagine you and your buddies are dispatched at night to intercept a flight of bombers. You take off and climb to altitude. Your buddy on the radar guides you to your target, then you dive down on your surprised foe as you and the gunner open up on them with your 4 20 mm cannons and 4 .50 browing machine guns. Or, its day time and you are dispatched with a few thousand lbs of bombs to raid enemy supply lines and support allied efforts on the front. The team dynamics, and the mission types you could run present unique gameplay loops and I believe that would be only a good thing for the game. 

 

This is all to say that the P-61 is an incredibly beautiful, and unique aircraft that would bring its own flavor to a game that seems to have been designed to implement it. Its unfortunate production issues prevented it from being implemented earlier in the war, as I believe like the Mosquito it would have proved to be a versatile platform, and would have a similar lasting mythology associated with it. Build this aircraft for the game, and I think you would have a lot of new fans of one of the coolest planes ever built. I know I for one would spend a irresponsible amount of money for the chance to sit in her cockpit.

 

P61 was too expensive, too big, too heavy, too slow (A/B), and err too late.

 

It does look cool though…

 

 

[Blitz1293]

15 hours ago, Mogster said:

P61 was too expensive, too big, too heavy, too slow (A/B), and err too late.

 

It does look cool though…

 

 

I believe that to be an incredible disservice to the aircraft. As far as price goes, it was about 3 times as expensive as a Mustang, and about $60,000 more expensive than a Mitchell, which considering its radar which accounted for a bulk of the cost makes sense. Let's not pretend though like its cost was what hindered production, it was specifically because Northrop was contacted to build another plane (the Vultee Vengeance,that was ironically more expensive per lbs and less useful in the end, being primarily used as a target tug) which interrupted their initial production run. It actually would have hit the European theater earlier if this hadn't been the case. It was big, yes, but handled well for its size according to pretty much everyone who flew it, it was a dream to fly, and according to Fred Erb who started working at Northrop in 1940 and helped build the first p-61s, on at least one occasion they put P-61 against a p38 and the Widow was better in the roll and turn. It could also famously roll into a dead engine, which many twin engine planes couldn't do. It was heavy and the A was slower than desired but both the B and C models went out of their way to improve its speed. The worst account of the time as far as I've seen was "its a good nightfighter. Not bad, not great, but good." As for it being late, it did arrive late in the war, and yet proved effective in what roles there were for it to fill. Ground pounding, hunting V1s, and in the pacific especially, hunting twin engined planes. It would be a worthy addition, with a lot for players to enjoy. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Blitz1293
Expanded on some points, corrected some mistakes

[_Spad_]

It's a unique, interesting aircraft for sure. I do think there would be more appropriate aircraft to help balance the current plane set we already have though.

[Blitz1293]

33 minutes ago, _Spad_ said:

It's a unique, interesting aircraft for sure. I do think there would be more appropriate aircraft to help balance the current plane set we already have though.

I completely agree, I think I gave that caveat in my post. If I didn't, yes, there are other more important aircraft that could be added that make more sense. Some German heavy fighters as well as working on the main aircraft of the pacific theater at the very least should all come before the P-61. I'm just trying to get people in the community interested, and hopefully we can get this super cool, unique aircraft down the road. ED did say in regards to the Mossy that it was setting a baseline for future similar aircraft so fingers crossed that includes the P-61.

[Richard Dastardly]

If there's a twin NF I'd expect the Mossie sooner ( given we're about to get most of it ), or an 88. The Widow is cool and I understand the enthusiasm,, but can you honestly say it's not a very niche aircraft in context of the others? the Heinkel Uhu is a similarily interesting & niche NF. Perhaps you can ask a 3rd party dev what they'd need to produce one?

 

My grandfather's name is on 1940 patents for cavity magnetrons, I have a reasonably personal interest in NFs...

[Mogster]

11 hours ago, Richard Dastardly said:

If there's a twin NF I'd expect the Mossie sooner ( given we're about to get most of it ), or an 88. The Widow is cool and I understand the enthusiasm,, but can you honestly say it's not a very niche aircraft in context of the others? the Heinkel Uhu is a similarily interesting & niche NF. Perhaps you can ask a 3rd party dev what they'd need to produce one?

 

My grandfather's name is on 1940 patents for cavity magnetrons, I have a reasonably personal interest in NFs...

The Uhu and the P61. Coolest looking and correspondingly most overrated aircraft of WW2…?

[Richard Dastardly]

18 hours ago, Mogster said:

The Uhu and the P61. Coolest looking and correspondingly most overrated aircraft of WW2…?

Possibly just what-could-have-been - I don't know what the effect-per-airframe numbers look like ( the 219 I think lacked the engines to do it justice ), but the effect on the war either had is negligible, which is I think where the core team should be looking. Effect-per-airframe ( and cool factor! ) is definitely something for 3rd parties though.

 

Or possibly it's just WT.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Richard Dastardly

[DD_Fenrir]

There is no DCS: WW2 Night Fighting environment. Ergo the P-61, among many others would be a white elephant.

 

At a minimum you'd need:

 

ETO:

1x RAF Heavy

1x Luftwaffe night fighter (Ju 88C/G/Bf 110G/He 219)

1x late war Luftwaffe bomber (Ju 188/Do 217)

Red GCI

Blue GCI

Historical Nav-aids

Relevant Map(s)

 

PTO

Pacific WW2 Assets

Relevant Map(s)

 

I've said it one, I will say it again: as much as I'd love to see it (and I really do, I'd love to try night interceptions or bomber support in a Mosquito NF.XII/XIII) there is just not the community interest to make this hugely demanding form of WW2 aerial combat viable.

 

I'd love to be proved wrong, but I just don't see it happening.