Starlight Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 There's been much debate on every Lomac forum about the introduction of new aircraft both as flyables and as AI-controlled. Related to the introduction of new AI aircraft, some of the main problems pointed out were that new A/C would mean modelling new flight models and new weapons systems. Ok for the first one, but the second one IMHO is not a real problem in Lockon. Today I took the F-15, I enabled A/G stores on its pylons, I flew a mission and I found no way to enable a ground attack system... sure, the F-15 is an interceptor, and ED modelled just its A2A modes. Ok, same mission, but this time flown by AI. The AI was able to drop the bombs and to hit two targets, both at day and at night. And CEP=0!!!! This means that the AI has available a generic (and really effective!!!! :) ) bomb system even on aircraft which shouldn't have them. To have the final proof I added a pylon to carry some bombs on a transport aircraft, and the result was the same: targets hit with pinpoint accuracy! I have always thought that even if some systems (in particular those of the flyables) in LockOn have been quite realistically modelled, some other systems are quite generic and may rely on generic parameters. IMHO the same thing seems to hold true for flight models. The flyables have quite accurate FMs, the non-flyable seem to rely on more generic ones. Given these facts I don't see why should be so difficult to add some more aircraft (as non-flyables) to make the game more interesting. Furthermore there are some aircraft which are just modded versions of aircraft already present in LockOn: the Tornado ADV and the F-15E Strike Eagle are quite good examples. The purists will say that their FMs are different, and in real world it may partially be true, but given the degree of realism of some "unmanned" aicraft/systems in LockOn I think that a slight tweak of some existing FMs should definitely be more than enough. And also the 3D models shouldn't be so difficult to develop if they were built over existing "airframes". Obviously that applies mainly to the non-flyables, because for flyables it would require a more in-depth systems modelling. But a small addon featuring some quite needed aircraft would bring some fresh air for the LockOn market/sales with minimal effort (no new bugs to solve, no tracks to be made compatible...) Just to give an idea, some aircraft that IMHO would be quite easy for ED to implement are the F-15E, the Tornado F.3, the F-111, the Su-30 (plus export versions) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
britgliderpilot Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Re: Some thoughts about adding new aircraft to LockOn . . . . . Are you talking about adding new AI aircraft, or new player-controlled aircraft? I like the idea of relatively easy modding of existing aircraft for the AI - but new player-controlled aircraft is a much, much bigger deal. If we're going to get new flyables, let's have them done properly . . . . which certainly isn't a small or easy job. I'd rather see ED scrap the idea of entirely new flyables in Lomac and work on implementing just one more into a future project, with more features. Lomac 2, with a DC, fixed AI, AFM's and a Hornet . . . . would rule, just as it is. No real need for more flyables, although new AI aircraft WOULD be cool. ED have muttered something about a DC in "a future project", but of course no word on flyables. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/britgliderpilot/BS2Britgliderpilot-1.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkStar Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 I think he means new AI controlled aircrafts. Is the flightmodel of a Strike Eagle so much different than a Eagle that it would require a huge amount of time to model it? If not then there shouldn't be anything stopping ED to throw it in. I would love it :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted January 23, 2005 Share Posted January 23, 2005 Yes, the Strike Eagle is quite different, both in flight model and avionics ... it's a much heavier aircraft with CFT's, more powerful engines, and of course that 2nd cockpit adds quite a bit of weight as well. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlight Posted January 23, 2005 Author Share Posted January 23, 2005 Yes, the Strike Eagle is quite different, both in flight model and avionics ... it's a much heavier aircraft with CFT's, more powerful engines, and of course that 2nd cockpit adds quite a bit of weight as well. First of all, yes, I mean AI controlled aircraft (I thought it was clear from the subject of the post) to answer: not much different in flight model. Sure the F-15E is heavier, but it's also higher-powered. The wing/fuselage/tail sections are aerodynamically identical to the F-15D, the two seater, which is very similar to the F-15 single seater (otherwise it wouldn't be used to train F-15 pilots!) with added conformal tanks on the jet intakes. Those tanks add about 20% more drag, plus their weight. The F-15E empty therefore has a FM very similar to that of the F-15D with two external fuel tanks, but it has quite less drag. The conformal tanks can be easily treated as external stores (in fact they are such, being detachable on the ground but not jettisonable in flight). I don't think that any flight sim has a different flight model for each store carried, so to have the FM of the F-15E we should just have the FM of the two seater version F-15D which, again, is VERY VERY similar to the already existing FM. in avionics yes, the F-15E is just another thing. However the avionics system of the F-15E is currently based on that radar and the Lantirn. The radar APG-70 is very similar in A2A functions to the APG-63 radar of the F-15C modelled in LockOn. The F-15C however lacks A2G capabilities. The lantirn system is already included in LockOn. Since I'm talking of AI-controlled aircraft we don't need an implementation of A2G functions of the radar (which are not even modelled on the Tornado included in LockOn) nor we should need a more detailed implementation of the Lantirn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlight Posted January 23, 2005 Author Share Posted January 23, 2005 I want to stress once more the main point of my original topic. The main point on my initial post is that the differences in flight models and avionics are not so important in the AI controlled aircraft in Lock On. Lock On is a simulation, and therefore represents a model of reality, not reality. The detail of the model represented in LockOn (in particular when talkin of AI controlled aircraft) is not so high to notice such differences. I am 100% sure that if today ED added an F-15E with the same FM of the F-15C telling that it was a brand new one, no one could even notice that. I previously described my experiments (the transport-bomber one) because I wanted to point out that AI controlled aircraft in LockOn are not modelled in high detail. Those aircraft can fly at terrain level at night even if they don't have TF radars. They can bomb targets day and night (with pinpoint accuracy even with dumb bombs) even if they don't have targeting systems nor even any bombing system at all. We can tolerate these things and we can't tolerate to see a tweaked F-15C flight model applied to the F-15E? :) The other general point is that I'm the first person to say that some of the most needed features of LockOn are a smarter AI and a Dynamic Campaign (and maybe some other flyables). But while these things need HUGE time, money and effort to be developed (and ED seems not to have some of them), some new aircraft can be done in a few weeks, maybe two or three months. And will bring a lot of new missions, situations.... today for example LockOn lacks a tactical US bomber... as an example IMHO the addition of the F-15E or F-111 would be easy and useful. I don't want this thread to become a wishlist for aircraft ("I want this and I want that" style...), and I don't want to talk about different versions of aircraft which could be implemented. I just want to hear if you agree with my simple model analysis of LockOn and if you could be possibly interested in buying a cheap expansion pack with some new aircraft (obviously not flyable). If you are interested, this could become an idea for people at ED. If you are not interested, I just gave a try ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brit_Radar_Dude Posted January 24, 2005 Share Posted January 24, 2005 Compared to the usual raft of "I want extra AI aircraft now, Lockon sucks without the xyz123. *&%$!! ED and the horse they rode into town on"...... I have to say this is one of the more sensible extra AI threads I've read. Of course mentioning your transport a/c bombing experiment has doomed you to a torrent of "I want C-130 and BLU-82 daisy cutter now!!" :wink: [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Sorry Death, you lose! It was Professor Plum.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlight Posted January 24, 2005 Author Share Posted January 24, 2005 Compared to the usual raft of "I want extra AI aircraft now, Lockon sucks without the xyz123. *&%$!! ED and the horse they rode into town on"...... I have to say this is one of the more sensible extra AI threads I've read. thanks a lot ;) To be honest I was hoping to gather a bit more of interest towards this topic... hell I'd love to see more non aircraft in LockOn... they would even have much more appeal to me than this flyable Su-25T actually does. but that's just IMHO, I don't want to start a flame here. Of course mentioning your transport a/c bombing experiment has doomed you to a torrent of "I want C-130 and BLU-82 daisy cutter now!!" :wink: Well that Il-76 was damn good at bombing... the funny thing was that after loading it with a single 2,000 pounds bomb, LockOn told me that its maximum weight was exceeded! A transport aircraft that has less than 2,000 pounds of payload? what the hell is that? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KILSEK Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Hi all. I am not a purist. I use the easy radar when I feel like it and I have no problems having an A.I. controlled Eagle bombing something. In fact I too tried LOPE to see if I could bomb something and of course, nada. I am glad you posted this. -KILSEK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwingKid Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 The rumor from another forum is that ED is planning to make an AI F-15E for the v1.2 Ka-50 add-on. You didn't hear this from me, but you might want to keep reminding them "that's the rumor," "you promised," etc. :wink: -SK "Wishlisting F-15E since 1999" 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBS17 Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 lol thats a nice rumour Swing kid. On the subject of extra ai aircraft types, it was mentioned in the lockon forums that ED has said that it will look at 3d models made by the community. So if you have 3dsmax and alot of spare time, have a crack at editing the F-15C and mutating it into a Mudhen or what ever else you want put in. If you have a look in the forums both here and in the UBI ones you'll see what I mean. There are guys working on 3d models right now. Bring on the MOAB! cheers Subs [sIGPIC] [/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
britgliderpilot Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 lol thats a nice rumour Swing kid. On the subject of extra ai aircraft types, it was mentioned in the lockon forums that ED has said that it will look at 3d models made by the community. So if you have 3dsmax and alot of spare time, have a crack at editing the F-15C and mutating it into a Mudhen or what ever else you want put in. If you have a look in the forums both here and in the UBI ones you'll see what I mean. There are guys working on 3d models right now. Bring on the MOAB! cheers Subs The only problem with that post is the word "edit". We don't have the 3dsMax plugin for converting the ED-format files back into user-editable files. Building new files, fine - ED converts them to their format once they've got them. But editing current ones . . . . we can't do. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/britgliderpilot/BS2Britgliderpilot-1.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBS17 Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 Damm, I never new that, makes it alot harder to make modified aircraft. Well at least the models have to go through ed first anyway for quality control. cheers Subs [sIGPIC] [/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlight Posted January 26, 2005 Author Share Posted January 26, 2005 In fact we can't edit existing aircraft and we can't add more CLSID.... but ED can do that! What I'm saying with this post is that IMHO ED could release tons of new aircraft without much effort. Given that they're not being modelled in high detail (as far as their systems and FMs), they could edit a lot of existing aircraft to get new ones.... just few examples: F-15C -> F-15E Tornado IDS -> Tornado ADV F-4E -> F-4G, F-4 FGR.2, F-4S, RF-4C C-130 -> AC-130.... Plus the activation and improvement of already existing "Flanker 2.0" aircraft which are now available with some mods like Mig-29K and F-111 IMHO it would not require a tremendous effort to make these new AI aircraft (anyway much less than modelling physics for Su-25T landing) and it would bring a lot "fresh air" to LockOn. That's is the part most concerning ED. If you think that also many fans are building 3D models from scratch for other aircraft (some of which don't even have a radar) I think we could really have tons of new aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KILSEK Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 Hi all. I am not a purist. I use the easy radar when I feel like it and I have no problems having an A.I. controlled Eagle bombing something. In fact I too tried LOPE to see if I could bomb something and of course, nada. I am glad you posted this. -KILSEK Hi all. :oops: Yeah I want retract that. I thought about that after I posted that and that did not come out right. I have really wanted to fly the F/A-18(so that I could bomb and dogfight) and I tried to edit(LOPE) the pylons on the F-15 so that I could and of course failed. What I am saying is that I can use the F/A-18 (A.I.) to accomplish that. So I really do not need the Eagle to do that. -KILSEK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russell_2878 Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 can i say for flyable and Su-27 SM? should be faily easy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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