Question about force feedback.

[Focha]

Hi there guys.

 

I am curious about how you guys simulate the force feedback. Is it non linear? Meaning that for example if the helicopter is on the ground if you move the cyclic and if you let it go it will stay on the same

position? Or independently of the flying situation it will force always the joystick to the center? Or it only force joystick to go back when on forward flight?

 

I don´t know if you understand my question, but for example, when a Bell 206 is at the ground with rotors stop if I move the cyclic and let it go it will stay on the same position, when the rotors are moving you feel the gyroscopic force (sorry I don´t know how to describe it) and when you move it, lets say in forward flight it will push the cyclic back (meaning that heli wants to go up).

 

Thank you for your help and patience replying to the question.

 

Best regards to all.

[r-unit]

Hi there guys.

 

I am curious about how you guys simulate the force feedback. Is it non linear? Meaning that for example if the helicopter is on the ground if you move the cyclic and if you let it go it will stay on the same

position? Or independently of the flying situation it will force always the joystick to the center? Or it only force joystick to go back when on forward flight?

 

I don´t know if you understand my question, but for example, when a Bell 206 is at the ground with rotors stop if I move the cyclic and let it go it will stay on the same position, when the rotors are moving you feel the gyroscopic force (sorry I don´t know how to describe it) and when you move it, lets say in forward flight it will push the cyclic back (meaning that heli wants to go up).

 

Thank you for your help and patience replying to the question.

 

Best regards to all.

 

 

Microsoft Forcefeedback 2 would be good.

[ryuzu]

Never flown a 206 but in this (KA-50) helicopter the control movements are transmitted via hydraulics.

 

That means that with the power off, sitting on the ground, the cyclic cannot be moved and in the air you don't feel aerodynamic forces directly - only what is fed to you by the trim system (and in some types this can be disabled to provide a "floppy" stick)...

 

At the moment I don't have a FF stick but I'd be interested to hear whether it will trim realistically - it would be the first sim I've found that did...

 

r.

Edited November 13, 2008 by ryuzu

[HitchHikingFlatlander]

Well I think a good answer would be that most dont simulate that effect. There are a few joysticks out that do that but I think at the moment they're mostly WWII replicas and are floor mounted solutions add to that they are crazy expensive compared to even higher priced HOTAS sets most simmers dont have them.

 

This is something I'd like to see in the PC flight sim market, more varied joysticks and controls to choose from with a more realistic approach. It can be done but since we are a limited market there is not a lot of money to be made so it probably wont happen. I would love to see a HOTAS like the old suncoms those were awesome sticks!

 

EDIT: Didnt think of the Microsoft FF stick, personally I think it looks even goofier than the X52 but its a solid performer and well built.

Edited November 13, 2008 by HitchHikingFlatlander

[Focha]

Never flown a 206 but in this (KA-50) helicopter the control movements are transmitted via hydraulics.

 

That means that with the power off, sitting on the ground, the cyclic cannot be moved and in the air you don't feel aerodynamic forces directly - only what is fed to you by the trim system (and in some types this can be disabled to provide a "floppy" stick)...

 

At the moment I don't have a FF stick but I'd be interested to hear whether it will trim realistically - it would be the first sim I've found that did...

 

r.

 

Mmm... Still when you fly at a speed you feel less forces on the cyclic right? It´s like a car with "assisted driving" (I don´t know if this is the correct term, it´s when a car has the wheel hydraulic assisted), you need less force to turn the wheel. So in a force feedback joystick you would not have a force pushing the joystick always to the center... I guess. So what I really want to know is how they write the FFB code, at least I think that you can control the FFB that way or the FFB joystick is always making force?

 

I give you an example, I had a microsoft FFB2 joystick when you were flying a plank (plank = plane = in this case C152) in FS2004 when you were at the ground the movement of movable surfaces did not have resistance on the joystick but has soon as you start to roll on the runway and you start to create aerodynamic forces on the airfoil you started to feel the resistance on the yoke (joystick) that always try to get the airfoil with a relative angle of attack with the relative wind (regarding center of pressure on the airfoil).

 

Hope you guys understand me. I am just curious if they simulate the FFB too in the sim.

 

Best regards to all and thank you for your replies.

Edited November 13, 2008 by Focha

[ryuzu]

Mmm... Still when you fly at a speed you feel less forces on the cyclic right? It´s like a car with "assisted driving" (I don´t know if this is the correct term, it´s when a car has the wheel hydraulic assisted), you need less force to turn the wheel. So in a force feedback joystick you would not have a force pushing the joystick always to the center... I guess. So what I really want to know is how they write the FFB code, at least I think that you can control the FFB that way or the FFB joystick is always making force?

 

I give you an example, I had a microsoft FFB2 joystick when you were flying a plank (plank = plane = in this case C152) in FS2004 when you were at the ground the movement of movable surfaces did not have resistance on the joystick but has soon as you start to roll on the runway and you start to create aerodynamic forces on the airfoil you started to feel the resistance on the yoke (joystick) that always try to get the airfoil with a relative angle of attack with the relative wind (regarding center of pressure on the airfoil).

 

Hope you guys understand me. I am just curious if they simulate the FFB too in the sim.

 

Best regards to all and thank you for your replies.

 

No - as you go faster in a medium/large helicopter the forces felt through the cyclic don't change.

 

The reason you felt those things in a C152 (real life or sim) is because there is a direct mechanical link between your stick and the control surface. That method works on aircraft with light aerodynamic loads.

 

The Shark uses hydraulics - you don't directly feel the aerodynamic loads under any normal condition what you feel is the Trim-feel system. Essentially you get something to "feel" and push against and that is a constant force - it doesn't change with flight condition.

 

r.

Edited November 13, 2008 by ryuzu

[Weta43]

I'd be interested to hear whether it will trim realistically - it would be the first sim I've found that did...

In reports from people who've flow other Kamovs - it's been said that it does - (as did LO & LO.FC for Russian "Planks" :-)

If you're flying and applying pressure to keep the cyclic in a particular position - & then trim, the cyclic will stay in the present position without force.

If you're interested & do a search you'll find quite a long thread discussing the actual trimming method of the Ka-50, and how well the FFB trimming in DCS.BS coresponds with that.

[tusler]

Hi,

I can tell you from stick time in an H53, if you feel a jolt or a bump in the stick while you are flying it, it is time to set down immediately. There is a fake feel system in place for pilots so they feel a little resistance when they move the stick in flight, which by the way is very very little movement.

The Hydraulic system has a center and will return the stick to center. You can create a new center position using trim and when the cyclic is released it will return to that position. It would not be a good platform for force feed back because the force used is the same and constant, it does not change with speed or maneuvering.

 

The H53 was created by Igor Sikorsky, a Russian, and so probably has some things in common with the Black Shark.

This sim by the sounds of it may be the first real helicopter to be on a PC.

I am looking forward to the simulated helicopter flight finally! :joystick:

[rapid]

This is the said question that I have been asking. but I would recommend the Saitek Cyborg evo FFB joystick.

With LB2 you felt resistance while flying plus when ever you fired your Hellfire missiles you felt the missile leave your Helo as well as machine gun fire.

BS also incorporates turbulence I would like to know if this would translate to the joystick resistance.

[Weta43]

I would like to know if this would translate to the joystick resistance.

If you search for the thread, all your questions - and more - will be answered.

 

The options are that either:

a/ I tell you about the thread & then I use the search button & find it for you,

or

b/ I tell you about the thread & you use the search button & find it.

You might like the sound of "a", but I know "b" will be so much better for you...

(& I'm off to eat dinner !)

The search button is at the top of the page, and is quite intuitive to use :-)

Edited November 13, 2008 by Weta43

[Focha]

Hi,

I can tell you from stick time in an H53, if you feel a jolt or a bump in the stick while you are flying it, it is time to set down immediately. There is a fake feel system in place for pilots so they feel a little resistance when they move the stick in flight, which by the way is very very little movement.

The Hydraulic system has a center and will return the stick to center. You can create a new center position using trim and when the cyclic is released it will return to that position. It would not be a good platform for force feed back because the force used is the same and constant, it does not change with speed or maneuvering.

 

The H53 was created by Igor Sikorsky, a Russian, and so probably has some things in common with the Black Shark.

This sim by the sounds of it may be the first real helicopter to be on a PC.

I am looking forward to the simulated helicopter flight finally! :joystick:

 

Thanks for the reply mate. So I guess the force feedback is implemented correctly. Assuming that the resistance in the cyclic is linear. In H53 how trim is set? Is via a button or POV?

 

Regards.

[urze]

Dear Focha,

 

Fist of all : Nice to see you on this Bord as 'active' member! :)

 

To answer your question you should move to this thread in the tech section of this forum:

Cougar with FFB

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=33320

 

In my initial post you are able to reach a self explaining Video that shows the FFB features of Lock On and Black Shark.

 

Cheers

Edited November 13, 2008 by urze

[Focha]

I have to talk to you urze! I have a X52 that I want to modify with your stuff, I´ll talk to you soon via PM. Thank you for your reply.

 

OT: Do you still fly at HC?

 

Regards.

[AlphaOneSix]

Thanks for the reply mate. So I guess the force feedback is implemented correctly. Assuming that the resistance in the cyclic is linear. In H53 how trim is set? Is via a button or POV?

 

Regards.

 

The resistance is from springs. Pressing the force trim button allows you to bypass the spring tension and move the controls freely with no resistance. Releasing the force trim button gives you spring tension again, with the "center" set when you released the button.

[tusler]

Thanks for the reply mate. So I guess the force feedback is implemented correctly. Assuming that the resistance in the cyclic is linear. In H53 how trim is set? Is via a button or POV?

 

Regards.

 

Trim is set via POV on the cyclic in the H53, it's a cool system where the Automatic Flight Control System couples the tail rotor pitch to the collective and the collective to the engines, compensation is done automatically. There is also and hover system where you turn one knob and it brings you up to a stabilized hover up to 50'. The system is coupled to a doppler radar that can fly you automatically to a predefined point and pull into a hover and then after a set amount of time it will turn and fly back to the starting point following the exact route back and pull into a stable hover at that point. Provided that the system is working as advertised inspite of all the vibration it endures.

 

I can't wait to experience the edges of the flight envelope of the black shark.