mirage doing tail slide?

[mikoyan]

take a look at this video

[RedTiger]

Ugh...Linkin Park *shudder*.

 

Anyways, I don't see why it would be surprising. I was under the impressions that a tail slide was more of a test of how engines handle high-alpha conditions without flaming out more than anything having to do with the slide itself.

[mikoyan]

so can f-16s f-18s and f-15s do that? I know that the raptor can do it too

[Teknetinium]

Mikoyan F-16 and f-15 cant do it,becouse of engines.

Edited November 15, 2008 by Teknetinium

[Vekkinho]

Cool video, thanks!

[nscode]

Also, you can't do a "bell" tail slide on a single-engined airplane. The bell is when the airplane recovers in the same heading as it entered the maneuver (so it looks like a church bell _/\_). When you are at the top, the gyro effect will rotate the plane. There is no airspeed, so the only way to counter it is to apply full power to one engine as you begin to fall back. You can actually see notice this with the MiG-29, watch for the engines and you'll see one of them puff smoke before the other.

 

 

Btw, I love French displays. I remember a Mirage display at the '97. Belgrade Air Show.. looked far more crazy and gutsy than the Su-27 display. Unfortunately, that gutsy pilot crashed a few years later :(

Edited November 17, 2008 by nscode

[Pilotasso]

Mikoyan F-16 and f-15 cant do it,becouse of engines.

 

Dont think so. The F-16 cant because it has spinning tendencies and its FBW software tries to prevent this. The F-15 isnt but I dont know how about its spinning tendencies.

[DarkWanderer]

2nscode:

1.Gyroscopic moments have negligible effect on jets, it's not WW2 tin cans.

2.A right bell is performed without rotation on low-speed part.

 

Dont think so. The F-16 cant because it has spinning tendencies and its FBW software tries to prevent this. The F-15 isnt but I dont know how about its spinning tendencies.

Teknetinium is right on that. Both planes are vulnerable to engine surging, though F-16 is ill-designed also :P

Edited November 18, 2008 by DarkWanderer

[Teknetinium]

Pilotasso when in that stage no FBW is helping, u dont have airflow, the only thing u need is working engine when trying to get out of it.

Im sure F-16 have automatic stall recover that could do it if the engines were build for it.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Teknetinium

[GGTharos]

The tail-slide is not on the list of restricted maneuvers in the F-15-1 ;)

 

Teknetinium is right on that. Both planes are vulnerable to engine surging, though F-16 is ill-designed also :P

[Teknetinium]

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/1986/articles/apr_86/f16_aero/index.html

Read this to get a good ide of F-16 AOA limits.

because of AOA limits there were no meaning of building engines that could handle tail slide.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Teknetinium

[nscode]

2nscode:

1.Gyroscopic moments have negligible effect on jets, it's not WW2 tin cans.

2.A right bell is performed without rotation on low-speed part.

 

No, at 0 forward speed they don't. If you want to stop the plane from rotating, you have to apply thrust to one engine before the other. It's even modeled (or scripted) in lockon for that matter.

[GGTharos]

The MiG-29's AoA limits aren't doing any better (with respect to flying backwards) ...

 

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/1986/articles/apr_86/f16_aero/index.html

Read this to get a good ide of F-16 AOA limits.

because of AOA limits there were no meaning of building engines that could handle tail slide.

[Teknetinium]

GG dont want to start any fan boy disputes, Mig-29 45 degrees, F-16 25 degrees.

when in that high AOA F-16 has better thrust to weight.

 

I never seen u saying anytime that something Russian is better then American, I find that amusing.

lool even in a AOA discussion lool.

 

Not even interesting to read u anymore we all know where it ends.

It would and for u pretty fast if u went in a fight against Mig-29 thinking u have same AOA capability in ur F-16.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Teknetinium

[GGTharos]

I think you are missing the point, as usual.

 

What does AoA have to do with flying backwards?

 

If you don't want to start 'fan boy disputes', why do you start them by saying things you obviously do not understand?

 

GG dont want to start any fan boy disputes, Mig-29 45 degrees, F-16 25 degrees.

when in that high AOA F-16 has better thrust to weight.

 

I never seen u saying anytime that something Russian is better then American, I find that amusing.

lool even in a AOA discussion lool.

 

Not even interesting to read u anymore we all know where it ends.

[Teknetinium]

Because u get in to AOA before and after ur flight backward, do u understand that.

and where is this leading, that F-16 has better AOA performance them Mig-29,:)

Edited November 18, 2008 by Teknetinium

[DarkWanderer]

If you want to stop the plane from rotating, you have to apply thrust to one engine before the other. It's even modeled (or scripted) in lockon for that matter.

Blessed, who believes. We have a video stating the opposite. No point in further word spending.

 

The tail-slide is not on the list of restricted maneuvers in the F-15-1

You're hell right man, there's no such limits - as there's no such plane...

Want it or not, AL-31 engine series have much better surge resistance than P&W F100's (which in addition still has some problems with AB burn stability.). If you're to argue an obvious - see above.

[GGTharos]

You can keep zero AoA throughout the maneuver if you want until you're flying backward. Do you not know what AoA is? You can have zero AoA going straight up.

 

And again, what's the difference between having a limit of 25AoA vs. 45 when you are flying BACKWARDS? None. Zero.

 

F-4's can do tail-slides and they don't exactly get up to 45deg AoA either.

[GGTharos]

Ever heard of a FADEC? According to the Flanker and Eagle manuals so far, the F-100's are more stable than the AL-31, and have a wider care-free operating envelope. Or is it that you want to compare the original F-100 engines?

 

Further, F-15 ACTIVE has done tailslides, and it uses the same engines. The F-15A and C are intentionally spun to teach the student how to recover - you get some 'backwards flying' at 200kts out of that if you want.

 

How about arguing the obvious now?

 

I don't know where you're getting your sources, I was looking at the flight manuals for those aircraft.

 

You're hell right man, there's no such limits - as there's no such plane...

Want it or not, AL-31 engine series have much better surge resistance than P&W F100's (which in addition still has some problems with AB burn stability.). If you're to argue an obvious - see above.

[Teknetinium]

I want to see it GG, F-15 tailslide.

F-16/F-15 pilots do everything the can to not get theire machines in that stage, so simple is that. even the aircraft is not alowing u to do it.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Teknetinium

[GGTharos]

The aircraft (at least the F-15) allows you to do anything you like, even if this ends up destroying the aircraft. The F-16 -might- do things for you to prevent you from flying the aircraft in an out-of-control condition.

 

I doubt AoA or engine issues have -anything- whatsoever to do with those aircraft not flying a tail-slide. More likely they are simply not anywhere near as controllable as a MiG in those conditions (essentially, post-stall) - since such performances are done low to the ground, unsafe conditions are out.

[DarkWanderer]

2GGTharos:

Answer me a question: which characteristics is Su-27 superior of F15 in?

 

On topic: I had ran into some rumors of F-18 and F-16 being able to repeat this figure - will look for proof. But repeating and making it - are different things.

[GGTharos]

2GGTharos:

Answer me a question: which characteristics is Su-27 superior of F15 in?

 

Instantaneous turn rate, low speed sustained turn rate, and probably some regime of low-altitude energy fighting (where both aircraft are more equal in climbing ability) - as far as 'the basics' go.

The R-73 gives it a big advantage close up as well.

I hear slow speed acceleration for the Su-27 is also better, I haven't checked numbers on that.

 

Edit: And naturally, better slow speed (ie high AoA) handling.

Second Edit: I forgot to add that the Su-27 looks good.

 

On topic: I had ran into some rumors of F-18 and F-16 being able to repeat this figure - will look for proof. But repeating and making it - are different things.

You mean tail-slide? I know the F-18 can, but IIRC not as cleanly.

 

The F-16MAWS and F-15ACTIVE have done /all/ the maneuvers, demonstrating that it isn't an engine problem holding them back. It may just be basic aerodynamics (namely controlability in post-stall situations)

Edited November 18, 2008 by GGTharos

[SVK_Fox]

dear guys sometimes when I read some post from GGT I would like to have some propaganda ministry :) It will suit you my friend. I am not really expert in aviation and military fighters like you. I am workin in aviation and speaking with guys every minute if it is posible, but I am not an expert or something like that and after few years and earning some experiences I have my own point of view.

 

Lets go to your problem guys.

Only thing that I know is that: DURING EXCERCIECES in 2007 in close combat between mig-29 and F-16, our pilots defeated all F-16 fighters. So I dont want do discuss about AOA or whatever. But in fact mig-29 pilots in close combat using advantage of migs including "great" AOA :)

 

I cant discuss about details during all training like BVR ex. and so and so. You know our migs are MIG-29AS and they dont have upgrated radar.

But this is another story.

 

I wish you nice evening and nobody on your 6 :smilewink:

[GGTharos]

If you really want to go that route:

 

 

Back on topic: There's still nothing to conclusively explain why F-15's or F-16's will not demonstrate a tail slide. It is NOT the engines (same engines have been used for tailslide in experimental versions of those aircraft) and it is NOT AoA (aircraft with worse AoA handling can do it).