SME stick settings

[Dannyvandelft]

What settings do you proper Tomcat pilots use in the sim for dead zone etc?

I have the VKB tomcat grip, curved extension, and base. I'm assuming for testing the Tomcat you use the same, or something similar. Would you care to share your settings?

I'm asking mostly for mid-air refueling. I get her lined up, crawl closer, but without fail in the last couple feet to the basket everything goes completely wrong and I'm wondering if I need to change some settings, or if it's just a matter of practicing more. The smallest touches seem to result in ridiculous amounts of PIO.

 

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[Baz000]

I think maybe you might be having the same problem with PIOs(are yours mainly in pitch too?) as I did when I used a 200mm Virpil stick extension. I noticed that the shorter length the extension I used on the stick the more force it took to move it and lessened the possibility of me inadvertently holding the stick with some pressure on an axis applied.

I don't tend to use any software or hardware dead zone on my setup because I prefer to use light pressure instead of stick displacement for fine tuning in certain phases of flight, but I have to admit, for the Tomcat in particular I'm considering changing that if it helps me control the plane much better and hold a stabilized flight path.

Since you are AAR, are you making sure your wing configuration and airspeed and altitude isn't changing constantly? IE: wings are stabilized in sweep condition, maneuvering flaps are in a static state and not changing... Aircraft isn't excessively accelerating or decelerating requiring trim adjustments, same for altitude.

The more you can get the plane in a stabilized, trimmed state, I have found the more easier AAR becomes.

Also, I have heard of trying to limit flight control inputs to pitch and rudder (limited to no lateral stick[roll]) as much as possible for adjustments because roll inputs change your lift vector and requires blended stick in pitch and roll to compensate. Dunno how much practical truth there is in that in particular, but I have heard such advice!

The most common problems I've seen my friends doing as I fly right observation position off the tanker watching is:

Letting the plane oscillate in the pitch axis (porpoising the nose) [to fix, first you need to recognize you are doing it then you need to chill on the pitch controls and let the aircraft stabilize)

Failure to manage closure rate, usually they don't match the tanker speed and walk the probe in at a constant rate until contact... Usually, I see them overshoot the basket and frantically try to reduce closure by going to idle, opening speed brakes and etc. They fail to see it as a bad pass and always try to salvage that which really isn't salvageable. Best to fall back a bit, reset and get stabilized and try another approach at a walking pace. 

Helps to look with an outside set of eyes sometimes to see what you are doing / what is happening... Look at a track of yours from external view and watch your approach into the basket and try to identity individual problem areas.

Edited October 25, 2021 by Baz000

[MAXsenna]

The historic reasons for deadzones, was either some issues with older pots, or play in the construction. Modern sticks don't usually suffer from any of this.
If you have none of these issues you should avoid deadzones like the plague. Why would you not? Introducing a "physical" fault in working equipment is basically what it is these modern days!

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[fat creason]

FWIW, I think a large amount of the HB team including both @Victory205 and I use the VKB F-14 stick with at least the 100mm extension. I use no curves or deadzone and don't really PIO and have never ripped the wings off unintentionally.

[MAXsenna]

FWIW, I think a large amount of the HB team including both @Victory205 and I use the VKB F-14 stick with at least the 100mm extension. I use no curves or deadzone and don't really PIO and have never ripped the wings off unintentionally.

Sorry for asking, just to lazy to Google/RTFM, what is the real stick length and deflection in the real Tomcat?
I have 40cm on my WH, and I have physically reduced deflection. But I went ahead and swapped it for my MS SW FFB2 today, and it was really good with the feedback and trimming. And I'm gonna mod it and at Virpil grip to it, so I would like to do it right.

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[Tulkas]

19 hours ago, Dannyvandelft said:

 

What settings do you proper Tomcat pilots use in the sim for dead zone etc?

I have the VKB tomcat grip, curved extension, and base. I'm assuming for testing the Tomcat you use the same, or something similar. Would you care to share your settings?

I'm asking mostly for mid-air refueling. I get her lined up, crawl closer, but without fail in the last couple feet to the basket everything goes completely wrong and I'm wondering if I need to change some settings, or if it's just a matter of practicing more. The smallest touches seem to result in ridiculous amounts of PIO.

 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

 

 

It is a matter of practising more. You have a good set up, you should avoid dead zones and curves. Curves flattening the center will make your life easier with formations, landings and AAR, but as soon as you go to more agressive maneovering, like aerobatics and ACM, you will enter the steep part of the curve and not be able to control the Gs and AoA. If you are going to fly the Tomcat like an Airbus, sure, use curves. If you intend to fly the whole envelop of a fighter, better not.

Practising. The time it will take will depend on previous experience, natural abilty and quality of your hardware but many of us have been flying close formation and AARs with shitty joysticks since DID EF2000 or before. What we have now is luxury.

That said, the longer the better, you have more range, you need to be less careful. The developers encapsulate the response of the aircraft in the range of movement of your stick, whatever it is. So if the range is equal to the real thing, you should get a response like the real thing. Is typical to see a real pilot trying a consumer sim for first time, with a traditional short joystick, and overcontroling all over the place. If the range is half than the real, their muscular memory obtains double response than expected.

I had the luxury of flying for ten hours or so the real AV8B Navy simulator, I wanted at home the closest possible feeling to that, so I messured the range of movement of the stick on pitch (not the length of hte stick!) and I calculated that a 27cm extension on my Warthog would give me roughly the same pitch displacement. It was an amazing change, very close to the real (sim) thing. Now we are just missing a quality force feedback that properly simulate trimming and we will have it all (why is nobody developing that?!)

Sorry! I took the liberty of answering not being a SME of anything at all!

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Tulkas

[sLYFa]

48 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

real stick length and deflection in the real Tomcat?
 

5.5 inches aft, 4 inches forward, 3.5 inches to the sides (measured at grip center)

A Virpil WRBRD (and VKB gunfighter AFAIK) with a 100mm extension and Tomcat grip should have roughly the same throw (although symmetrical of course)

Edited October 26, 2021 by sLYFa

[MAXsenna]

5.5 inches aft, 4 inches forward, 3.5 inches to the sides (measured at grip center)
A Virpil WRBRD (and VKB gunfighter AFAIK) with a 100mm extension and Tomcat grip should have roughly the same throw (although symmetrical of course)

Thanks!
But 100mm sounds too short, or is it 2x100mm?

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[Baz000]

50 minutes ago, sLYFa said:

5.5 inches aft, 4 inches forward, 3.5 inches to the sides (measured at grip center)

A Virpil WRBRD (and VKB gunfighter AFAIK) with a 100mm extension and Tomcat grip should have roughly the same throw (although symmetrical of course)

 

How about with a VPC MongoosT-50CM2 Base as that is currently what I use? Right now, I have a 175mm extension installed on it, but I have 100,50,75,200mm to choose from at home.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Baz000

[sLYFa]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

Thanks!
But 100mm sounds too short, or is it 2x100mm?

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No 1x100mm. Keep in mind that the angular deflection of a flightsim stick (VP Mongoose being an exception) is far larger than that of a real stick, leading to larger travel at shorter lengths

Edited October 26, 2021 by sLYFa

[Baz000]

Do you know if it is the same deflection as the VPC MongoosT-50CM2 Base with the VFX grip?

[sLYFa]

2 hours ago, Baz000 said:

Do you know if it is the same deflection as the VPC MongoosT-50CM2 Base with the VFX grip?

The Mongoose afaik has 12.5° deflection, so a 200mm extension should come close 

[Baz000]

Thanks for that tidbit of information. Right now I'm using 175mm extension (100 piece plus 75 piece)

How does 175mms compare to the real stick?

[Baz000]

I had to hunt around for it for a while but according to this it says they use 16 degrees on the new V2 of the stick base (which is what I own) 15 degrees was version 1 apparently.

https://m.facebook.com/VIRPILControls/posts/2704092709706571

Also, what math calculations are you making to arrive at your answers? I may want to look into this for other DCS aircraft I have too.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Baz000

[Victory205]

Virpil, no curves, no extension. MFG pedals. 

[sLYFa]

11 hours ago, Baz000 said:

at math calculations are you making to arrive at your answers? I may want to look into this for other DCS aircraft I have too.

 

You take your stick length and multiply with the sine of your deflection angle. E.g the throw for a 100mm extension and a VFX grip would be (100+75)*sin(16deg)=48, 75 being roughly half of the grips length

[Baz000]

I see, thanks for that explanation.

And that 48 figure corresponds to cm of throw in your example above?

Edited October 27, 2021 by Baz000

[sLYFa]

Millimeter in this case. If you measure the length in inches, the resulting throw will also be in inches. 

[Baz000]

sorry, I'm a little confused in your example above... That 48mm value converted to inches is just under 2 inches (comes to be 1.88-ish) 

On 10/26/2021 at 1:04 PM, sLYFa said:

5.5 inches aft, 4 inches forward, 3.5 inches to the sides (measured at grip center)

A Virpil WRBRD (and VKB gunfighter AFAIK) with a 100mm extension and Tomcat grip should have roughly the same throw (although symmetrical of course)

 

Isn't the goal to have the physical stick in your cockpit at home have same values as this? So, obviously you can't have non-symmetric stick deflection with your at home hardware so you need to pick the highest value, right?? Which is in this particular case 5.5 inches.

Anyways, using your math above the resultant throw I get is pretty much just under 2 inches rather than 5.5 inches. I'm a little lost on the methodology you are using, I think.

You are using the same base points for measurement (stick center) so I don't really understand the discrepancy.

For example if I was to use your same formula but factor in a 200mm extension on a VFX grip, what I come up with is this:

(200mm+75mm) * SIN(16)=76mm

76mm converted to inches (since original stick throw was in inches) comes up to be 3 inches (so that still is 6 inches away for roll, and still short of 5.5 or 4 inches for pitch)

Again, using the stick displacement numbers in inches you provided.

Is my math wrong or something I'm missing?

[sLYFa]

4 hours ago, Baz000 said:

Anyways, using your math above the resultant throw I get is pretty much just under 2 inches rather than 5.5 inches. I'm a little lost on the methodology you are using, I think.

Thats because the Mongoose's deflection is 16° (which I used in the example), compared to 25° on the WarBRD. Thus, for the BRD, 100mm is arguably enough while on the Mongoose it is not. But you probably wont get the full 5.5 on a Mongoose base even with a 200mm extension. I remember seein some diagramms showing deflection and throw values for all virpil bases and grips/extensions, but I cant find these anymore unfortunately

[Baz000]

Oh so the mathematical calculation I did was correct? It is just a stick base limitation. I have all the Virpil extensions, but I usually don't connect any more on top of my 200mm curved extension.

Right now I've been using 100mm plus 75mm put together.