w.i.p Rudder Trim Not Working

[dresoccer4]

I wanted to log an official bug that's preventing me from flying the Hind correctly: the rudder trim is not working, even though it is selected in the special menu. I've started another thread of this and it seems many people are having the issue.  When twisting the joystick and pressing the trim button, the rudder will not stay trimmed in that position, the same way it does with the Mi-8. It simply goes back to the middle. I can manually trim the rudder by using the left and right rudder buttons, but the typical rudder trimmer is not working. However it does work just fine for the cyclic. 

I'd like to get feedback to make sure it's been logged as I've owned this bird for several months now but am unable to fly it because of the rudder bug

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by dresoccer4

[Schlomo1933]

Your pedals need to be perfect centered. a small amont of input and the yaw chanel is switched to standbye. Ass a possible solution u can make your deadzone bigger.

The scale is not showing how u trimmed the rudder. it shows how much the autopilot is working to hold your heading. 

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Schlomo1933

[dresoccer4]

2 hours ago, Schlomo1933 said:

Your pedals need to be perfect centered. a small amont of input and the yaw chanel is switched to standbye. Ass a possible solution u can make your deadzone bigger.

The scale is not showing how u trimmed the rudder. it shows how much the autopilot is working to hold your heading. 

 

 

yo, i dont have pedals i have a twisty joystick

[Quati]

Sadly I also use a Twist Grip for rudder and have to use Rudder Trim a lot but it works fine for me.

Did you check the Control Helper checkbox at the Mi-24 tab on Settings?

Also check if you have another controller bind on your rudder axis a couple times I had my trackir/opentrack set to it for no apparent reason.

Edited November 3, 2021 by Quati
added +1 alternative for the issue

[BIGNEWY]

seems ok here if you have the control helper and rudder selected in special options. 

[dresoccer4]

5 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

seems ok here if you have the control helper and rudder selected in special options. 

 

what does the control helper function do?  you need Control Helper and Rudder Trimmer both selected to use the twist-grip rudder trim?

[BIGNEWY]

12 minutes ago, dresoccer4 said:

 

what does the control helper function do?  you need Control Helper and Rudder Trimmer both selected to use the twist-grip rudder trim?

I will double check with the team before I reply. 

Thanks

[dresoccer4]

5 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

I will double check with the team before I reply. 

Thanks

thanks @BIGNEWY!

[Quati]

16 hours ago, dresoccer4 said:

 

what does the control helper function do?  you need Control Helper and Rudder Trimmer both selected to use the twist-grip rudder trim?

I just use Rudder Trimmer, and for the Trim I use the Default option.

Control Helper I keep unchecked.

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

I have checked with the team and its not working like the Mi-8 one does, it is going to require some rethinking from the team especially for twist stick setups. 

The team are looking for solutions. 

thanks

[dresoccer4]

On 11/8/2021 at 2:41 PM, BIGNEWY said:

Hi, 

I have checked with the team and its not working like the Mi-8 one does, it is going to require some rethinking from the team especially for twist stick setups. 

The team are looking for solutions. 

thanks

THANK YOU! i was going crazy for a while thinking it was something on my end. thanks for the update and here's hoping the team can find a solution 

[dresoccer4]

On 11/8/2021 at 2:41 PM, BIGNEWY said:

Hi, 

I have checked with the team and its not working like the Mi-8 one does, it is going to require some rethinking from the team especially for twist stick setups. 

The team are looking for solutions. 

thanks

hey there. know if there's any update on the rudder trimmer getting fixed to be like the Mi-8? Or if not, if there's any work around that can get the rudder to trim?

[rogorogo]

Am 14.12.2021 um 00:14 schrieb dresoccer4:

hey there. know if there's any update on the rudder trimmer getting fixed to be like the Mi-8? Or if not, if there's any work around that can get the rudder to trim?

Just FYI - as many others I use a twist stick, I have "control helper" NOT enabled (and you should very much stay away from that) and only the "include rudder" (== tail rotor/yaw) option enable in the "special tab" and the choice of "central position" trim mode for the joystick.

And usign the "trim button" for the "autotrim" works perfectly for the "rudder", with ONLY the "pitch" and "roll" dampener channels of the ВУАП-1 system enabled, NOT the YAW dampener channel (that will already cause issues or at least make any corections sluggish or cause overtrimming) - until it does not.
Which has been bugreported.
Sometimes the button just done accept any trim, sometimes it results in a trimlock but the coolie-hat manual trim still works. Especially fun when both happens in a reversed sequence and then you have to try land the Crocodile from a neutral trim reset cylic center (which in itself... but that is a different story)

It is not a problem of pedals or a twist-axis, it is a coding issue.
It should also not be "like in the Mi-8". The NATO label for the Mi-24 is "Hind", not "Hip" and when it works, it works very well and is very fidelic. Imho ofc.
But there are issues - and not only there - that need to be resolved - but that mean earnestly looking at them, not doing adaptions of Ian Bainks novels.

[dresoccer4]

20 hours ago, rogorogo said:

Just FYI - as many others I use a twist stick, I have "control helper" NOT enabled (and you should very much stay away from that) and only the "include rudder" (== tail rotor/yaw) option enable in the "special tab" and the choice of "central position" trim mode for the joystick.

And usign the "trim button" for the "autotrim" works perfectly for the "rudder", with ONLY the "pitch" and "roll" dampener channels of the ВУАП-1 system enabled, NOT the YAW dampener channel (that will already cause issues or at least make any corections sluggish or cause overtrimming) - until it does not.
Which has been bugreported.
Sometimes the button just done accept any trim, sometimes it results in a trimlock but the coolie-hat manual trim still works. Especially fun when both happens in a reversed sequence and then you have to try land the Crocodile from a neutral trim reset cylic center (which in itself... but that is a different story)

It is not a problem of pedals or a twist-axis, it is a coding issue.
It should also not be "like in the Mi-8". The NATO label for the Mi-24 is "Hind", not "Hip" and when it works, it works very well and is very fidelic. Imho ofc.
But there are issues - and not only there - that need to be resolved - but that mean earnestly looking at them, not doing adaptions of Ian Bainks novels.

tbh i'm not sure i really followed any of that. all i know is the rudder trimmer on my ffb twist stick isn't working like it does in every other dcs helicopter module where you twist the stick to where you want it, press trim, and the rudder stays trimmed in that position. currently you have to manually trim the rudder by holding left and right on the trim until the rudder slides close to where you want it, which is a very unprecise, laggy way to fly an attack helicopter. it makes flying her not very fun as you're constantly incorrectly trimmed. 

it should work like the other helicopter modules with BIGNEWY confirming this. I hadn't heard any updates in a while so was checking if they've added the rudder trimmer for twist sticks yet so i can fly

[rogorogo]

your are not flying "every other DCS helicopter module" - this module has a unique flight envelope and also, unlike "every other DCS helicopter module" an integrated "autopilotky" that at its most basic has input dampener channels.

If you cannot follow that you might want to educate yourself about it. The part about how it works in the end for us, on the peripheral side was pretty clear though, or so I thought.

Because - thankfully - this rotary works entirely different to any other rotary. 

Rudder trim for twist sticks worked from day 1 of early access. The need for further attention has nothing to do with the concept but the implementation.

[dresoccer4]

59 minutes ago, rogorogo said:

your are not flying "every other DCS helicopter module" - this module has a unique flight envelope and also, unlike "every other DCS helicopter module" an integrated "autopilotky" that at its most basic has input dampener channels.

If you cannot follow that you might want to educate yourself about it. The part about how it works in the end for us, on the peripheral side was pretty clear though, or so I thought.

Because - thankfully - this rotary works entirely different to any other rotary. 

Rudder trim for twist sticks worked from day 1 of early access. The need for further attention has nothing to do with the concept but the implementation.

everything you're saying is irrelevant to this thread. We're not talking about a flight envelope or integrated autopilot or anything else except the rudder trimmer function.

the rudder trimmer in dcs is indeed supposed to work like all the other helos, as that's how rudder pedals work. Helicopter rudder pedals aren't spring centered; when you press them, they stay pressed. obviously a twist stick setup cannot do that, thus the rudder trimmer is a workaround that allows the rudder to stay in place when trimming to simulate rudder pedals. 

this is how the other DCS helos work as well. hope this helps you understand now

Edited December 17, 2021 by dresoccer4

[AlphaOneSix]

Nevermind, I misunderstood that you were saying that real helicopters don't have springs that return the pedals to their last trimmed position. I don't think that's what you meant.

Edited December 17, 2021 by AlphaOneSix
nevermind

[dresoccer4]

5 minutes ago, AlphaOneSix said:

I have yet to see a helicopter that does this. All of them had force trim feel springs and all are spring-centered to their last trimmed position. Unless I am misunderstanding the issue here.

meaning helicopter rudder pedals aren't like our little twist sticks. they don't jump back to the center when you release pressure, they stay trimmed in place. this is how real helicopters work and how all of the dcs helicopters behave when "rudder trimmer" is used. all except the mi-24, which is the problem

here's how chuck explains it:

Edited December 17, 2021 by dresoccer4

[AlphaOneSix]

No, real helicopters do have springs that return the pedals to their last trimmed position.

[dresoccer4]

8 minutes ago, AlphaOneSix said:

No, real helicopters do have springs that return the pedals to their last trimmed position.

 i can't tell if you're joking. you're repeating back what i'm saying. please re-read.
maybe there's something being lost in translation here...

Edited December 17, 2021 by dresoccer4

[AlphaOneSix]

Yeah I think we just misunderstand each other. When you say "center" I read that as "last trimmed position" but I think you mean actual center. But yeah, if you move the pedals, then press and release the trimmer, then the pedals will spring load to that new position. I think that's what you mean, which is correct as you've been saying.

[dresoccer4]

7 minutes ago, AlphaOneSix said:

Yeah I think we just misunderstand each other. When you say "center" I read that as "last trimmed position" but I think you mean actual center. But yeah, if you move the pedals, then press and release the trimmer, then the pedals will spring load to that new position. I think that's what you mean, which is correct as you've been saying.

 yes, now we're on the same page.

in the mi-24, when you press and release the trimmer, the pedals won't stay trimmed. at least not for me. which makes it hard to fly. that's the whole problem here

Edited December 17, 2021 by dresoccer4