Allow user to decide whether ramp starts are hot or cold (proposal to merge waypoint takeoff types)

[BIGNEWY]

Guys, 

by all means give feedback and share your ideas but let's not gate keep on people's wishes, it doesn't need the constant back and forth. 

Please stay on topic of the thread title.  

thanks

 

[SharpeXB]

24 minutes ago, Vakarian said:

So how did you never seen a hot start option?

I’ve never seen one, yet. Just checked Growling Sidewinder and I see them there. None of the servers I’ve ever played on for 10 years had these. 

[Tippis]

57 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Finally an explanation after several pages…

This was explained from the get-go, and shouldn't even need any explanation to someone who opines on this topic. It's one of the most basic and fundamental things you get to learn when you create missions.

If this needed to be explained to you, I can only offer one further suggestion: go troll somewhere else. This thread is not for you. You do not understand the topic, the problem, or any part of the discussion. Your thoughts and opinions on the matter are pointless, inapplicable, invalid, and uninformed. Go read the DCS manual, create and test a dozen or so multiplayer missions, and then come back when you got some experience to speak from. Jeez.

57 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

ok so just fix this in the ME to be able to set this individually, problem solved.

You never did read the op did you?

Yes, exactly. Add the option the OP is suggesting. Problem solved. I can only (once again) assume that you're in favour of this option, then, since you are now suggesting the exact same thing.

57 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Any way you do this people are going to want it sever-side like everything else in MP 

You know how I listed “how servers work” among the DCS-related things you are not familiar with? Yeah, this is why.

Servers do not work like that. I mentioned that it will not affect how servers operate — I did that for a reason. This is not a server option because the server doesn't care about these things. This is a mission option. In fact, it's not even that; it's a waypoint option, just like how the OP described it. You should probably go read it.

[SharpeXB]

10 minutes ago, Tippis said:

You never did read the op did you?

Yeah the OP would like to cold start at a spot closer to the action. That’s already possible on several different servers. So just find a sever with gameplay that suits your taste. No change to the game is required for that. 

10 minutes ago, Tippis said:

This is not a server option because the server doesn't care about these things

I’m sure there are severs that do. Particularly the realistic dynamic war type which have all sorts of mechanics and rules which encourage you to not play recklessly. Hot starts facilitate that by letting you throw away your plane and quickly get back in a new one.

Edited November 10, 2021 by SharpeXB

[Tippis]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Yeah the OP would like to cold start at a spot closer to the action. That’s already possible

Then you didn't read the OP.

Try again. Try to understand what he's really asking for (in spite of this having been explained to you on multiple occasions).

If you can't grasp it, ask nicely for yet another explanation, and we'll give it one last shot. And no, what's being asked for here cannot be done. DCS does not allow it. The reason you think it can is solely because you haven't actually tried and are just guessing — it's one of the main ways in which you prove to everyone that you do not understand this discussion or the topic in general.

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

No change to the game is required. 

Improvements to the game are always needed.
And if that's your attitude, you should probably listen to what the mods say and just stay out of the Wishlist forum entirely because it's not a good fit for you.

[SharpeXB]

14 minutes ago, Tippis said:

Improvements to the game are always needed.

Sure. And there are tons of them that I think are more important since there’s already a workaround for this one. After the Dynamic Campaign is done then maybe this could be looked at… 

[Frederf]

This is a cool idea. The mission could choose between three states:

1. Hot start
2. Cold start
3. User choice

If #1 or #2 then it's forced. If it's #3 the user chooses. Everyone wins.

[Tippis]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Sure. And there are tons of them that I think are more important

Then you no longer have any reason to post in this thread. Your input is not needed, and indeed never was, like the mods like to remind you.

And seeing as how it's such a minor change with such huge ramifications, it's also very obvious that it's not something that need to wait until the heat-death of the universe (aka “Dynamic Campaign” to happen. Indeed, for such a campaign feature to be possible, this needs to happen first since it would be a very important component in that larger feature.

34 minutes ago, Frederf said:

This is a cool idea. The mission could choose between three states:

1. Hot start
2. Cold start
3. User choice

If #1 or #2 then it's forced. If it's #3 the user chooses. Everyone wins.

Pretty much. The OP's idea of simply tying it to the start-up WP action makes pretty darn flexible. It would probably need to be two different selections, though: hot/col (which might be built into the starting position, much like how it is now, just to reduce the dev work needed) + “allow client override”. So visually, you'd only really end up with one new option, unless you want to go hog wild and revamp the WP action database, with all the legacy mission breakage this would entail…

Edited November 10, 2021 by Tippis

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Tippis said:

And seeing as how it's such a minor change with such huge ramifications

How do you know it’s minor work? I’m sure even the “small” tasks require hundreds of hours. As for “huge” ramifications? Not so much. Mostly I’m sure it would get locked on some servers anyways. 
I can think of many more important things to be worked on. And work is better done on content that actually makes money. Only a tiny fraction of DCS owners play online let alone care about how they can spawn into the game. So this just isn’t a feature that’s a profitable thing to devote resources to IMO. 

Edited November 11, 2021 by SharpeXB

[Tippis]

14 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

How do you know it’s minor work?

Because I have made a fair few missions. I know what the options look like. I know what capabilities there are.

Al the components and behaviours already exist. They just need to been disentangled and no longer be gated behind unrelated settings.

14 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

As for “huge” ramifications? Not so much.

Yes, huge. If you bothered to read what you could suddenly create with almost zero extra work, you'd quickly get a feel for how huge a difference it would make. Whether it would get locked out or not is anyone's guess — we only know that you can't be sure. The reason you can't is because you're applying some good old confirmation and availability bias as the only foundation for your assumptions about what people prefer or not. As mentioned, you're getting cause and effect backwards: preferences are not what dictates what servers offer at the moment — feature availability does. You therefore cannot conclude that making a new feature available would be pointless because there is no preference for it: the preference you're imagining only exists because the feature doesn't exist.

14 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

And work is better done on content that actually makes money.

This would allow for much more content that makes money. In particular, it is something that needs to happen to make a competitive and viable dynamic campaigns possible.

So, again, in your desperate flailing around to try to invent some reason why DCS should remain a lesser game and not have this very common and very obvious feature, you only manage to come up more reasons why your wish should not come true.

As it is, you still haven't come up with a single valid reason why this idea should not happen. Your personal preference for a bad, featureless, narrow-niche, one-playstyle-only game is not a reason, much less a valid one. Quite the opposite…

14 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Only a tiny fraction of DCS owners play online let alone care about how they can spawn into the game.

If that logic was ever applied to all the tiny bits and bobs in DCS that only affect some small portion of a tiny fraction of players. most of DCS would never exist.
Narrow-mindedness is not a valid excuse for not improving the game.

[SharpeXB]

59 minutes ago, Tippis said:

Your personal preference for a bad, featureless, narrow-niche, one-playstyle-only game is not a reason, much less a valid one.

Well gee if you feel that way about DCS why are you here?

59 minutes ago, Tippis said:

why DCS should remain a lesser game

It doesn’t seem lesser to me, maybe this just isn’t your thing. You think it’s a “lesser game” because you have to start up the aircraft?

 

I worry for DCS because ED works very hard to produce these authentic and complex modules and all some players want to do is short cut and circumvent the complexity.

Edited November 11, 2021 by SharpeXB

[Tippis]

12 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Well gee if you feel that way about DCS why are you here?

Because I prefer it to be good, full-featured, widely appealing, and catering to many play styles — the entire wishlist section of the forum is sort of entirely intended to deal with ideas for doing that, you know… So of course I'm here.

You should probably read BIGNEWY's post at the top of the page and (re)consider your insistence on doing exactly what he asks you not to do. At the end of the day, this section and your preference for how DCS should work simply aren't compatible.

12 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It doesn’t seem lesser to me,

You haven't done the maths, then. Even the very simple equation shown earlier.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Tippis

[SharpeXB]

6 minutes ago, Tippis said:

Because I prefer it to be good, full-featured, widely appealing, and catering to many play styles

Which it does already, to a certain degree. There’s only so much play style latitude in a game that’s supposed to be a realistic simulation. And where multiplayer is concerned that play style should be up to the server and any settings which affect that should be server controlled. This proposed feature is in that category. 

[Tippis]

18 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Which it does already, to a certain degree.

“A certain degree” is not good enough. Complacence and defeatism will only lead to a dead game. I can only conclude that this is your end goal.

18 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

There’s only so much play style latitude in a game that’s supposed to be a realistic simulation.

Not really, no. And even if there were, DCS is nowhere near that limit, nor will it ever get close to it if we resign ourselves to keeping it a lesser game the way you want us to.

You never answered that, by the way: why are you so vested in not letting the game be improved?

18 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

And where multiplayer is concerned that play style should be up to the server and any settings which affect that should be server controlled. This proposed feature is in that category. 

No. And no. And also no. In that order.

No, that's not how DCS works.
No, that's not what servers control.
No, this feature does not affect that in the slightest. Maybe you should read the OP to check out what he's asking for.

Again, you're arguing from wilful ignorance to keep the game from being improved. That is all. You're just trolling. Keep at it, because I'm sure that will end well for you. If not, how about this: try to explain how the OP's idea would in any way, shape, or form cause any problems with play styles. Do it without inventing a completely different thing than what the OP actually suggests. Try presenting an actual argument for why this idea is a bad one. Try to actually discuss the topic at hand.

If you can't, again, you should probably read BIGNEWY's post and consider your intent and your options…

Edited November 11, 2021 by Tippis

[SharpeXB]

20 minutes ago, Tippis said:

Try presenting an actual argument for why this idea is a bad one.

On the dynamic war servers capturing airbases is a goal. They impose a startup and refuel time for aircraft otherwise insta-spawning aircraft repeatedly from the bases would make them impossible to capture. So such a server would certainly need to restrict the players choosing a hot start. 

[Tippis]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

On the dynamic war servers capturing airbases is a goal. They impose a startup and refuel time for aircraft otherwise insta-spawning aircraft repeatedly from the bases would make them impossible to capture. So such a server would certainly need to restrict the players choosing a hot start. 

…and? You forgot the part where you were supposed to present an actual argument why this idea is a bad one.

[SharpeXB]

17 minutes ago, Tippis said:

…and? You forgot the part where you were supposed to present an actual argument why this idea is a bad one.

That’s the reason. Allowing a player-controlled start mode on the aforementioned server would negatively affect the gameplay. I’m not as much against the idea as much as I’m for it being a server setting. If a server wanted to allow it, sure. But there are servers which would want it restricted. 

[Tippis]

22 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

That’s the reason. Allowing a player-controlled start mode on the aforementioned server would negatively affect the gameplay.

Nope. Read the OP.

A need to restrict players from choosing hot starts is not a argument why this idea is a bad one, and for a very simple reason: you're not actually presenting a case that would be negatively impacted — or indeed affected at all by the idea. So no, that quite literally can't be the reason.

22 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m not as much against the idea as much as I’m for it being a server setting.

That's not how DCS works.

Spoiler

In fact, just to extend some wholly undeserved charity towards you, let's list the full set of server settings DCS has. Let's see if you can spot a trend:

• Server name and password, and public or private mode.
• Max players and max ping.
• Connection port.
• Integrity check or free modding.
• Event reporting in chat (kills, takeoff/landing, crash, eject, role change).
• Allow/disallow data export (object, sensor, player data, screen shots).
• Allow/disallow trial clients.
• Allow/disallow plane ID changes (skin, tail number).
• Use/don't use voice chat.
• Pause setting (manual, pause when empty, unpause on mission load).

Notice anything missing that you think the server might be restricting at the moment?

 

22 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

If a server wanted to allow it, sure. But there are servers which would want it restricted. 

In other words, you are fully on board with the OP's idea and you don't actually have any kind of argument why the idea would be a bad one. Check.

Maybe you should read the OP so you understand what you're supposedly opposing, as well as why you're not actually opposed to it.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Tippis

[SharpeXB]

20 minutes ago, Tippis said:

In other words, you are fully on board with the OP's idea and you don't actually have any kind of argument why the idea would be a bad one

I’m not fully onboard with it because I think it should be server regulated. If a server wanted to allow this choice, fine, but not all of them would want to.  

20 minutes ago, Tippis said:

That's not how DCS works.

DCS has server settings. So yeah that’s how it works. Have you ever played online?

20 minutes ago, Tippis said:

you're not actually presenting a case that would be negatively impacted

I just did, it would make capturing airbases impossible if defending aircraft could repeatedly hot start spawn from them. 

Edited November 11, 2021 by SharpeXB

[Tippis]

6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m not fully onboard with it because I think it should be server regulated.

In other words, you are fully onboard with it. You should probably read the OP to understand why this is the case.

You should probably also read up on (or possibly just experiment with) how DCS settings work to understand why this is would not be regulated via a server setting — indeed, why it would be a much worse idea if it was implemented as something as inexact as a server setting, and why the OP's idea is a much better solution than that.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Tippis

[SharpeXB]

On 11/8/2021 at 5:41 PM, Nootshell said:

Naturally, startup types should still be enforceable for mission makers

Agreed. I have no objection to that. 

12 minutes ago, Tippis said:

In other words, you are fully onboard with it. You should probably read the OP to understand why this is the case.

I’m onboard with the above but I think you’d find many servers that want it controlled so the ability to choose will likely be moot. So ED would end up working on a feature that in turn gets disabled most times. Rather counterproductive. 

Edited November 11, 2021 by SharpeXB

[Tippis]

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m onboard with the above but I think you’ll find many servers that want it controlled

Doesn't really matter, now does it. That's the whole point of having options, after all: there are those who want to tick that box and there are those who don't. The option satisfies both.

And good on you for finally reading the OP. Wouldn't this whole thing have been a whole lot easier if you had started with that?

[Exorcet]

This could very well be part of a comprehensive overhaul of DCS options and menus. After all many settings and workflows in DCS are decades old and the sim has moved a long way since then. Missions have the potential to be much more complex than ever, and we need more flexibility to provide both mission makers and players with the ability do things in their intended manner. I feel like it would be beneficial to overhaul as many thing at once as is feasible rather than one by one. What most concerns me is backwards compatibility, as that is always going to be an issue for a project like DCS. Perhaps, as part of this hypothetical overhaul, DCS also needs the ability to have very modular, plug and play sections of code for options like this. Unfortunately I don't know what DCS's code looks like so it's getting a bit out of my scope of knowledge, but just a suggestion on my part.

[SharpeXB]

8 minutes ago, Tippis said:

And good on you for finally reading the OP.

I read it. It’s asking for a choice that would likely just end up being dictated by the server. So why ask? Plus you can find game modes like this already.

[Tippis]

13 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I read it.

Lolno. You've spent three pages proving that you had no idea what the OP was even asking for, and not understanding why your feigned concern was never a real issue to begin with. It's nice to see that, now that you have read it, you seem to temporarily grasp that it was handled from the very start.

13 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s asking for a choice that would likely just end up being dictated by the server.

No. Because DCS servers do not work like that and because, as explained to you on numerous occasions, making it a server option would make it a whole lot worse for everyone (yes, for you too) than what the OP is suggesting. He's asking for it because it's something DCS simply cannot provide at the moment. Yes, there are game modes like this already, but you'll find those in other games — not DCS — and you're still operating on the naïve assumption that DCS has the same capabilities when in reality, it's lagging far behind.

And before you read the OP and shifted foot to now try to say that you agreed with it all along, you were actively arguing (well… asking for, really, since you didn't have any real argument to speak of) to keep DCS a lesser game.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Tippis