investigating Radar and System Track vs Tu-160 Blackjack

[Dawgboy]

Baseline:

• OB 2.7.8.16140
• Syria Map
• Multiplayer (this mission has just me, but flew with a "live" Hornet with same results)
• Track File (too large to upload)

From the moment the system tracks are generated by AWACS and fed to my Viper, I see all the 4xSu-24 Fencers, meaning multiple RED systems tracks on the HSD.  However, despite 4xBlackjack being there, only a single system track is evident on the HSD.  See Picture1.

Furthermore, while at 40NM and less, I can see all the Fencer on the radar, EXP and break them out (Picture2); however, not so with the Blackjack (Picture3) until they scatter within 10NM, even tho they are larger aircraft that I get a single radar return at ~60NM.

It might be ECM/jamming, but there's no indication and that might be WIP, symbology not there yet in the Viper.   Are there any bugs here with the Blackjack versus Fencer radar returns and AWAC systems track feed?

Thanks,

db

[Deano87]

Have you tried replicating this in single player using the mission editor?

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, the track replay is not playing correctly for me. Can this be reproduced in single player?

[Dawgboy]

3 hours ago, Deano87 said:

Have you tried replicating this in single player using the mission editor?

@BIGNEWY

@Deano87

No, but I will run in SP and report back.  What is the purpose for flying the mission from the Mission Editor?  Just curious...

BTW, since that other track didn't work correctly, here's a shot I took when I had a tally on the Blackjacks.  At this point, I could see all four of them clearly, but only lock the one aircraft.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Dawgboy

[Deano87]

1 hour ago, Dawgboy said:

What is the purpose for flying the mission from the Mission Editor?

My point was setup an identical scenario with just you, 4 blackjacks and an AWACS using the mission editor and see if the problem still persists. If it behaves normally in the most basic recreation of the problem then it could be something mission related in some way or some multiplayer only weirdness.

[Dawgboy]

@BIGNEWY

Here's the track file and screenshots from the same mission file, flown in single-player mode. No difference compared to MP mission.  Specifics:

• HSD showed single AWACS system track for Blackjack while in Incirlik HAS during preflight config, hot from parking.  Fencer showed multiple overlapping AWACS system tracks.
• Initial Blackjack radar detect:  ~60nm, single constant AWACS system track.
• Tally engine smoke and aircraft dots around 34nm, might have been farther.
• Blackjack scattered within 5nm of rear intercept, then I picked up multiple radar tracks, single AWACS system track.
• After they scattered, multiple AWACS system tracks, within 1-2 miles.
• In most of the pics, I left enough of the panel to show the multiple overlapping Fencers on the HSD.

I have not flown a clean mission yet with just me, the Blackjack, and the AWACS. Maybe tomorrow, @Deano87

F16vBlackjackTestSP.trk

Edited December 11, 2021 by Dawgboy

[BIGNEWY]

Thanks for the info, I am investigating. 

I have found an issue in the editor that maybe related which I have reported, give me some more time with this one. 

thanks

[BIGNEWY]

Im not seeing any issue in my testing, with close formations like that I often switch to EXP on the radar, see if it helps

[Dawgboy]

6 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Im not seeing any issue in my testing, with close formations like that I often switch to EXP on the radar, see if it helps

I did EXP, and it did not alleviate this issue. I think I have a pic of Blackjack fail and Fencer success.  Will attach when I find it. @BIGNEWY

Edited December 15, 2021 by Dawgboy

[Dawgboy]

@BIGNEWY Hopefully in order, you will see 4 x Fencer in EXP mod at 30.8nm.  Next, 4 x Blackjack showing as a singleton, NOT EXP, just outside 20nm.  Lastly, 4 x Blackjack in EXP showing as a singleton on radar and AWACS feed, just outside 20nm.   The JPG file names are labelled accordingly.  

For my other pictures, when the Blackjack flight breaks apart, I acknowledge there is latency between that event and when I get the networked SA feed showing hostile-red tracks.  I'm not expecting those trons to flow at light-speed.  Later, I get the corresponding SA track, albeit lagging the radar return on the FCS, which I guess would be normal latency within 10nm.  

Further to this, while I don't have a track file to prove it since DCS CTD when exiting that MP mission, my "live" Hornet wingman didn't have either radar or SA tracks until after the flight broke apart.  I did have pics from that mission, but I didn't include them...you have correlated pix from the track files I included there.

Clearly, something's amiss...if you want to fly my MIZ, let me know.

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

I will continue to test today, what I need is a air start as simple as possible track showing it, the shorter the better. 

thanks

[Dawgboy]

7 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi, 

I will continue to test today, what I need is a air start as simple as possible track showing it, the shorter the better. 

thanks

@BIGNEWY Here you go; clean MIZ with air start...specs:

• I have a flight of 4 x Fencer off to my left, and the 4 x Blackjack singletons are to my right. 
• AWACS is off to the north.
• Me in my Viper
• The Fencer flight is slightly farther away.
• First detect on Blackjack around 60nm.  Fencer about 40nm.
• Between the 40nm and 20nm range threshold, I continue to see the same on the scope: I can break out the Fencer but not the Blackjack, either in EXP or non-EXP.  I can visually see the Blackjack in formation outside 20nm.
• Inside the 10nm to 5nm threshold, I can break the Blackjack apart, the same with the full-up MIZ file.  I shot at the Blackjack to see if they'd scatter earlier.  Once within the label range, I see the Blackjack labels for each.
• in this one, I seem to get multiple AWACS SA Blackjack tracks on the FCR, but not on the HSD.  I always get multiple Fencer SA tracks from AWACS, and the same with Flogger in other missions based on the same full up MIZ file.

Still seems fishy the Fencer throw off a better return in EXP or non-EXP modes.

F16vBlackjackTestSPairStart.trk

[Dawgboy]

@BIGNEWYany luck with the team?

[Deano87]

Just out of interest have you tried swapping the Tu-160s to something else large like the Tu-95 and see if it still does it? 

[BIGNEWY]

On 12/16/2021 at 7:50 PM, Dawgboy said:

@BIGNEWY Here you go; clean MIZ with air start...specs:

• I have a flight of 4 x Fencer off to my left, and the 4 x Blackjack singletons are to my right. 
• AWACS is off to the north.
• Me in my Viper
• The Fencer flight is slightly farther away.
• First detect on Blackjack around 60nm.  Fencer about 40nm.
• Between the 40nm and 20nm range threshold, I continue to see the same on the scope: I can break out the Fencer but not the Blackjack, either in EXP or non-EXP.  I can visually see the Blackjack in formation outside 20nm.
• Inside the 10nm to 5nm threshold, I can break the Blackjack apart, the same with the full-up MIZ file.  I shot at the Blackjack to see if they'd scatter earlier.  Once within the label range, I see the Blackjack labels for each.
• in this one, I seem to get multiple AWACS SA Blackjack tracks on the FCR, but not on the HSD.  I always get multiple Fencer SA tracks from AWACS, and the same with Flogger in other missions based on the same full up MIZ file.

Still seems fishy the Fencer throw off a better return in EXP or non-EXP modes.

F16vBlackjackTestSPairStart.trk 2.26 MB · 3 downloads

Hi, 

I dont think there is any bug here. The blackjack are in a much tighter group, I know they are singles currently, but in a future patch you will be able to set them in groups of four. 

 

[Dawgboy]

On 1/14/2022 at 3:55 AM, BIGNEWY said:

Hi, 

I dont think there is any bug here. The blackjack are in a much tighter group, I know they are singles currently, but in a future patch you will be able to set them in groups of four. 

 

I have no choice but to believe you; however, if you look at the one pic above, I'm within 10nm, looks like 8nm, and I can see these HUGE Blackjack with my own eye, each of them, but the radar still "sees" only one.  I can imagine, as I said, there being only one AWACS SA ELINT correlation.  Hmmmmmm.....

[Frederf]

If this is a limitation of the radar resolution (an excellent thing to simulate) then the resolution would be range and spacing dependent. Four groups of one or one group of four is irrelevant as long as the positional geometry is the same.

• With a test for best detection distance. The radar was able to resolve a group of 4xTu-22 at 83.6nm in the open abreast formation (2743x0m). This is an an angular separation in azimuth of about 1.0°.
• Repeating at close formation (1828x0m) detection at same initial range was only of two contacts, one which I think was #1 and then the other kept flipping back and forth between two other airplanes (I think #3 and #4). At 77.7nm there was a flicker of a fourth (I think #2) distinct contact. Four simultaneous distinct contacts was only achieved at 56.9nm (0.99°).
• Repeated at group close formation (39x0m) was difficult as the AI maneuvered to avoid collision and flew an approx 74m spacing. Regardless initial detection occurred at about 83nm. Four distinct contacts were seen almost immediately.
• Repeated at finger four open (116x97m). Same detection distance. Indications other than a single contact started at 55.6nm. Behavior changed in character and full resolution into four distinct contacts did not occur until 3.0nm (~1.2° in azimuth).
• Lastly I tested two groups of one each Tu-22 laterally spaced at 1.0nm but otherwise identical in speed, alt, and range. Full resolution occurred at 57.2nm.

Conclusion is that against Tu-22 regardless of within a group of between two groups unambiguous resolution purely in the azimuth domain is 1.0-1.2° for F-16 radar.