Multicrew Autohover and HOT-3 targeting issues in 2.7.9.17830

[Toumal]

Hi, had a lenghty test session yesterday and found the following issues appearing in multicrew, and ONLY in multicrew:

1. Autohover doesn't work as expected as soon as another player hops into the helicopter.  More specifically, autohover will actually engage, but will only manage cyclic, not the tail rotor nor the collective. The Ctrl-Enter indicator also shows this. As soon as the second player exits, autohover works as expected.
2. HOT-3 gunner cannot stabilize the crosshair on a target intermittently. This works if playing alone, but as soon as you join another helicopter in multicrew this function appears to be broken. Because of 1 and 2, it is impossible to deploy the rockets against ground targets in multicrew. Even the smallest yaw motion makes the crosshair jump some 30 meters to the left or right.
3. When a gunner joins, weird things happen in the cockpit: for example, the INS rotary knobs move to different positions. If the gunner joins while the turbines are running but the main rotor hasn't spun up, the state of both seem to be completely desynced between the pilot and the gunner. Maybe that's an older bug, but I'm mentioning it for completeness' sake.

We tried this multiple times with people swapping roles and helicopters and could reproduce this consistently. That's a big shame because the HOT-3 variant is the one that makes the most sense in multicrew, and right now it appears to be unsuable. Still works fine if you fly without a second player in the same helicopter!

[Dscross]

Having same problem. 

 

[Ramsay]

2 hours ago, Dscross said:

Having same problem.

Auto-hover as it works in Single Player, is a "cheat" to allow players to search using the Viviane camera and fire the HOT3 missile while the AI pilot/co-pilot handles collective and yaw.

AFAIK IRL the Gazelle Auto-hover only has authority over the cyclic (it's possible PC has received new info.).

Multicrew in the Gazelle isn't wholly supported ATM due to exacerbated sync issues introduced with DCS 2.5.0 (at which point PC removed the co-pilots ability to fly the helicopter).

PC have said they'll revisit the MC code once the KW is out and the Gazelle FM been updated but can't make any promises.

With that said, multicrew is said to be functional when

• The pilot enters first in a cold aircraft.
• Once in the cockpit, he pushes the GEO/UTM button on the NADIR once.
• the second player can then send his request and join.
• Once the second player has joined, the pilot can continue the start up, etc.

Unfortunately YMMV as the latest DCS patches seem to have reduced the reliability of this method of syncing the two cockpits.

In multicrew, the pilot

• is responsible for managing yaw and collective in auto-hover (this is by design and not a bug)
• can use ADI "VIS" mode to align the helicopter with the camera
• should check the co-pilots Viviane TV matches his view and/or guide co-pilot so the target/crosshairs align for pilot (pilot's helicopter decides if target is hit)

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Ramsay

[Dscross]

On 1/3/2022 at 8:10 PM, Ramsay said:

Auto-hover as it works in Single Player, is a "cheat" to allow players to search using the Viviane camera and fire the HOT3 missile while the AI pilot/co-pilot handles collective and yaw.

AFAIK IRL the Gazelle Auto-hover only has authority over the cyclic (it's possible PC has received new info.).

Multicrew in the Gazelle isn't wholly supported ATM due to exacerbated sync issues introduced with DCS 2.5.0 (at which point PC removed the co-pilots ability to fly the helicopter).

PC have said they'll revisit the MC code once the KW is out and the Gazelle FM been updated but can't make any promises.

With that said, multicrew is said to be functional when

• The pilot enters first in a cold aircraft.
• Once in the cockpit, he pushes the GEO/UTM button on the NADIR once.
• the second player can then send his request and join.
• Once the second player has joined, the pilot can continue the start up, etc.

Unfortunately YMMV as the latest DCS patches seem to have reduced the reliability of this method of syncing the two cockpits.

In multicrew, the pilot

• is responsible for managing yaw and collective in auto-hover (this is by design and not a bug)
• can use ADI "VIS" mode to align the helicopter with the camera
• should check the co-pilots Viviane TV matches his view and/or guide co-pilot so the target/crosshairs align for pilot (pilot's helicopter decides if target is hit)

 

 

Ramsay, thanks for your answer, but I didn't ask what the real helicopter does. This is a simulator, not a replicator, clearly there must be compromises for advanced aircraft to have similar capabilities to when operated by a guy behind a computer vs real people in a real helicopter. For example, I can't... feel the aircraft, because my office chair is firmly (most days) on the floor. I understand that the real SA342 doesn't have an auto hover/ auto collective working as the simulated one does in the game. That isn't what was referring to, and neither was the OP. The goal of the sim is to get the end result, I.E. warheads on foreheads. I don't need (for example) my datalink in the F16 to really travel to and from a flying computer with it's wiper blades on as the pilot eats a snickers bar, I just need something to simulate me getting link16 data. I don't need a simulated rabbit to get simulated cancer near some simulated airbase because I simulated turning on the simulated AWG-9 radar in my simulated tomcat while simulating sitting on the simulated cement. I just need the simulated jet to simulate what I would see in the jet if I turned the radar on while on the ground.  

As to "Polychop is working on it after the release of the OH-58", great, that's what I needed. This is the place to report bugs so that developers can be aware of them. The more people who report a bug, and others who second it, means it's not some random user induced error. But, since Polychop apparently knows about the bug, great, that's what I wanted to show them. So that's all that was necessary. But you should try it yourself (you implided you havent' done it yourself and experinced the problem) because then you'll better understand what we who have done it are seeing. 

Anyway, thanks for letting us know that Polychop is aware of the problem, and it might be a while before it gets fixed. Thats what I needed. It's still a fun helicopter to fly, and it allows me to practice the basic tactics of making pop up attacks with guided weapons on simulated tanks. I will look forward to the time when I can have someone in the left seat working the VCB, it will be great fun.  

Safe flights and happy landings. 

[Ramsay]

15 minutes ago, Dscross said:

Ramsay, thanks for your answer, but I didn't ask what the real helicopter does.

Specifically I was trying to addressing this part of the OP's post

On 12/28/2021 at 2:23 PM, Toumal said:

1. Autohover doesn't work as expected as soon as another player hops into the helicopter.  More specifically, autohover will actually engage, but will only manage cyclic, not the tail rotor nor the collective.

... and explain why PC chose to model autohover differently (realistically ?) when another player joins in multicrew.

[Toumal]

On 1/4/2022 at 2:10 AM, Ramsay said:

Auto-hover as it works in Single Player, is a "cheat" to allow players to search using the Viviane camera and fire the HOT3 missile while the AI pilot/co-pilot handles collective and yaw.

AFAIK IRL the Gazelle Auto-hover only has authority over the cyclic (it's possible PC has received new info.).

This sounds weird since there is AP switches for Pitch, Roll and Yaw in the cockpit. And there's an auto-slave toggle button on the stick, which has the function of aligning the helicopter with the current target of the camera. Unless of course, all these controls do not exist on the real helicopter. The flight manuals I found do say the same thing you do, but I see versions of the Gazelle cockpit with and without the axis switch box, so I'm wondering if there may be versions that do stabilize yaw.

 

On 1/4/2022 at 2:10 AM, Ramsay said:

 

With that said, multicrew is said to be functional when

• The pilot enters first in a cold aircraft.
• Once in the cockpit, he pushes the GEO/UTM button on the NADIR once.
• the second player can then send his request and join.
• Once the second player has joined, the pilot can continue the start up, etc.

 

I did not have to do any of these steps. Neither do they change anything about the observed issues.

 

On 1/4/2022 at 2:10 AM, Ramsay said:

In multicrew, the pilot

• is responsible for managing yaw and collective in auto-hover (this is by design and not a bug)
• can use ADI "VIS" mode to align the helicopter with the camera
• should check the co-pilots Viviane TV matches his view and/or guide co-pilot so the target/crosshairs align for pilot (pilot's helicopter decides if target is hit)

Even minute changes in manual yaw produce 10, 20, 30m or more deviation in the camera aim, which makes it impossible for the gunner to hit a target. We are talking sub-millimeter changes on the rudder pedals throwing off the aim. The only solution is to land the helicopter on a hill so there's no more yawing happening. If the yaw was a bit more forgiving on the camera, and/or the camera ground stabilization would work in multicrew, I could understand and cope with it. As it is now, it's not usable. 

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by Toumal

[Ramsay]

1.

6 hours ago, Toumal said:

This sounds weird since there is AP switches for Pitch, Roll and Yaw in the cockpit.

Agreed, especially since IIRC US flight tests and private owners mention a "Badin switch" (IAS sensor ?) that disconnects the SAS yaw channel above 90 km/h (as it loses authority ?).

IIRC the SA341 POH warns of a yaw change as the SAS yaw channel switches in/out at that speed.

Quote

343-shrieking-gazelles, 25th March 2014, 16:46

I forgot to mention one component of the SAS system. They call it a 'Badin switch'. Once airspeed is about 48kts, the switch disengages the yaw electric actuator.

 

3.

6 hours ago, Toumal said:

Even minute changes in manual yaw produce 10, 20, 30m or more deviation in the camera aim, which makes it impossible for the gunner to hit a target...  As it is now, it's not usable. 

Strange, we had no issues in DCS 1.5.x (late 2016 ?) and were even able to perform a few slow moving HOT3 attacks, IIRC the pilot skill level was similar to that req'ed to hold a steady hover or land on a building and the CPG needed to be able to hit moving vehicles, etc.

Unfortunately, early in 2017, I gave up on Gazelle multicrew due to problems with mission triggers and AI spawn/movement desyncs and we never went back as 2x Gazelles are generally more effective than 1x multicrew (though not as much fun - when it works).

We plan to give MC another try with the Apache

Edited January 11, 2022 by Ramsay

[Toumal]

44 minutes ago, Ramsay said:

 

Strange, we had no issues in DCS 1.5.x (late 2016 ?) and were even able to perform a few slow moving HOT3 attacks, IIRC the pilot skill level was similar to that req'ed to hold a steady hover or land on a building and the CPG needed to be able to hit moving vehicles, etc.

Unfortunately, early in 2017, I gave up on Gazelle multicrew due to problems with mission triggers and AI spawn/movement desyncs and we never went back as 2x Gazelles are generally more effective than 1x multicrew (though not as much fun - when it works).

We plan to give MC another try with the Apache

 

I can confirm that it used to work in the past. Much fun was had with no problem. And again, I wouldn't mind having to stabilize yaw myself as per official flight manual, but then at least the ground stabilization of the camera needs to remain functional in multicrew as it does solo.