Dedicated Haptic Feedback - for bass shakers and the like

[Hoirtel]

On 1/21/2023 at 5:05 PM, jross194 said:

I'm the opposite, but to each his own.

My main point was, if you prefer specific effects (G-force for instance or stalls), with the ability to pick-and-choose (ala SSM/SSA), then, like FFB joysticks, having the DCS engine spit this data out directly should eliminate or greatly reduce the latency.

I think it's been mentioned above - as is it goes through lua (Export.lua), then an external application, then to your sound card (real or virtual. I use a cheap USB sound card and it's better than a virtual one but still noticeable, but not so much that I'd turn it off.

I'd think if this process was the same for a FFB joystick (or racing wheels in a race sim) you would notice more delay from action to response [feel]. When I yank on the stick for instance I "Feel The G" (scaled to how hard/quick I pull) but it's just a tad later than the observed motion. I haven't used a FFB joystick in many years but I don't recall that being an issue, cus the [at the time] DX input stuff spit it all out directly to the hardware, without having the extra middleware.

 

For those that have never used haptic feedback: if they supported it directly more people might try it (the sellers of the hardware - Butt Kicker, et.al - might be happy?). And IMO it has become mandatory (at least in VR): I can't 'fly' without this anymore. FEELING the sim is a game-changer, using sound only (and all the extra 'noise' that produces) or physics/specific output only.

 

Yeah its definitely a bit subjective. The game doesn't include telemetry for g forces but it does have a range of sounds for rushing air, stalls and buffets and if the EQ is tuned for transducers I find this much better and smoothly fits in with the game. All without having to tune for each aircraft. I also found that when the g forces were running in SSA it made so much movement that nothing else got through and it was a bit fake feeling and out of sync. I too have a separate USB sound card. I did try to use them together to see if I could introduce a little of this back but to be honest it just ruined the game feelings and made a bit of a mess. Even the gun brrrrrts are better using sound and if you use both, then they cancel each other out and you get very little. I use voicemeeter banana to control game sound inputs so only game sound goes through the EQ and makes movement. No comms or external applications (Spotify....), works really well. Each aircraft and effects are as different as they sound and the sonic booms are booming! Not to mention explosions and other aircraft flying over, taking off etc etc. Its all there!

[draconus]

Can you tell me how loud is the system? I usually play at night, headphones and zip-lip conditions

[Hoirtel]

16 minutes ago, draconus said:

Can you tell me how loud is the system? I usually play at night, headphones and zip-lip conditions

You can hear it, but using the EQ to cut off the higher frequencies reduces this a lot. I also wear headphones but I am assured that it can't be heard outside the room! One thing is that transducers should also be physically isolated so that the vibrations don't transfer into everything else. This will be another reduction of noise and interference for others and also ensures you get a better quality feeling. I use a home made simpit with a wooden frame and a sim racing seat which sits on a plywood platform. That platform is mounted to the frame using pump isolators bought on ebay (Anti Vibration Rubber Mounts). Transducers are also on the platform. Works really well - its not totally silent though.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Hoirtel

[KeyserSoze62]

On 7/16/2022 at 1:08 AM, Hoirtel said:

It does really. It's the in game sounds. I used to use Sim shaker and also found it a little inconsistent. Just using the game sound is very consistent. The newer modules are definitely better than the older ones for the low frequency noises.

 

Sorry to reboot this old thread but very interested in trying out this method of using game sounds instead of SSA for my BassShaker.  I have one Dayton Bst-1 and the Nobsound amp connected by USB. Currently using SSA but would like to see the difference.  For game sounds I usually wear a wireless headset along with my head tracking.  Can you share how I would go about setting up the basshaker to use game sounds? 

Thanks.

[Hoirtel]

12 hours ago, KeyserSoze62 said:

Sorry to reboot this old thread but very interested in trying out this method of using game sounds instead of SSA for my BassShaker.  I have one Dayton Bst-1 and the Nobsound amp connected by USB. Currently using SSA but would like to see the difference.  For game sounds I usually wear a wireless headset along with my head tracking.  Can you share how I would go about setting up the basshaker to use game sounds? 

Thanks.

Hi, can't believe it's that long ago since I wrote that... Happy to help. I still enjoy the games sounds as motion feedback. No fidlling with settings at all, very simple and almost perfect. Perhaps one downside is external aircraft effects - sonic booms feel like you have been hit with a missile... but everything is so in sync I don't mind this at all.

So I use a free application called voicemeeter banana which is an audio mixing application. It can appear a little odd to use at first but makes sense if you look at some tutorials. The basic concept is that you would set one of the input channels here to your DCS game sound output and then you would send this out through two of the voicemeeter output channels. One to your headphones and one two your bass shaker. My bass shaker channel has the high frequencies cut off and a bit of bass boosting so that I reduce the audible sound and also get the best of the lower frequencies. Don't cut off too much as the mid ranges still provide good movement in a transducer.  

If you use voicemmeeter you will need to adopt it as the main sound application on your PC, this means it will be the default in/out for windows and you headset/mic and anything else you use will need to run through it also. Voicemeeter banana has two PC sound in channels, three hardware in channels, and three sound out channels. I believe voicemeeter potato is a bigger option with more in and out but I have not tried it. You can convert the hardware in channel to software in with a paid add-on. Its cheap and one-off purchase so worth doing if you ned more. The two default channels will need to be one for all PC sounds (DCS etc etc) and one for all comms. You don't want a booming voice through your shakers!

I would also recommend a second transducer for L/R audio on your nobsound, but you can set the channel to mono in voicemeeter so you will at least get flat effects across a single transducer, while remaining stereo in your headset.

Post back here if you need help with it.

[KeyserSoze62]

15 hours ago, Hoirtel said:

Hi, can't believe it's that long ago since I wrote that... Happy to help. I still enjoy the games sounds as motion feedback. No fidlling with settings at all, very simple and almost perfect. Perhaps one downside is external aircraft effects - sonic booms feel like you have been hit with a missile... but everything is so in sync I don't mind this at all.

So I use a free application called voicemeeter banana which is an audio mixing application. It can appear a little odd to use at first but makes sense if you look at some tutorials. The basic concept is that you would set one of the input channels here to your DCS game sound output and then you would send this out through two of the voicemeeter output channels. One to your headphones and one two your bass shaker. My bass shaker channel has the high frequencies cut off and a bit of bass boosting so that I reduce the audible sound and also get the best of the lower frequencies. Don't cut off too much as the mid ranges still provide good movement in a transducer.  

If you use voicemmeeter you will need to adopt it as the main sound application on your PC, this means it will be the default in/out for windows and you headset/mic and anything else you use will need to run through it also. Voicemeeter banana has two PC sound in channels, three hardware in channels, and three sound out channels. I believe voicemeeter potato is a bigger option with more in and out but I have not tried it. You can convert the hardware in channel to software in with a paid add-on. Its cheap and one-off purchase so worth doing if you ned more. The two default channels will need to be one for all PC sounds (DCS etc etc) and one for all comms. You don't want a booming voice through your shakers!

I would also recommend a second transducer for L/R audio on your nobsound, but you can set the channel to mono in voicemeeter so you will at least get flat effects across a single transducer, while remaining stereo in your headset.

Post back here if you need help with it.

Hey thanks so much for replying.  A lot to understand but let me get the app downloaded and see if I can start to figure it out. Any links to the best tutorials you mention?  I'm visual if you happen to have a diagram on how things route   ie:

1 Channel = PC sounds  -> Banana -> Bass shaker Input  -->
1 Channel = PC sounds  -> Banana -> DCS Main Audio -->
etc.

I currently have my general PC sound on the audio out of motherboard to a Fosi amp to bookshelf speakers and a sub.
Then I have wireless Corsair headset
Then the nobsound via USB just for the shaker.

So these are my three sound choices:

If i understand correctly. Banana will become a 4th choice and the current three will be inputs to Banana? Maybe its more complicated than that.

Thanks again for taking the time to answer.

 

 

 

[Hoirtel]

15 hours ago, KeyserSoze62 said:

Hey thanks so much for replying.  A lot to understand but let me get the app downloaded and see if I can start to figure it out. Any links to the best tutorials you mention?  I'm visual if you happen to have a diagram on how things route   ie:

1 Channel = PC sounds  -> Banana -> Bass shaker Input  -->
1 Channel = PC sounds  -> Banana -> DCS Main Audio -->
etc.

I currently have my general PC sound on the audio out of motherboard to a Fosi amp to bookshelf speakers and a sub.
Then I have wireless Corsair headset
Then the nobsound via USB just for the shaker.

So these are my three sound choices:

If i understand correctly. Banana will become a 4th choice and the current three will be inputs to Banana? Maybe its more complicated than that.

Thanks again for taking the time to answer.

 

 

 

Yes it becomes the 4th device in your case and then everything goes through that. Probably check the website for some links, it has a good guidance do too. Basically you have three hard ware in, Two software in (five in in total) and then five outputs: A1,A2,A3,B1,B2.  This means you can send DCS sound out to two channels at the same time, one for headphones and one for transducers, you can also send comms just to headphones. Harder to explain than it will be once you see it. 

[KeyserSoze62]

10 hours ago, Hoirtel said:

Yes it becomes the 4th device in your case and then everything goes through that. Probably check the website for some links, it has a good guidance do too. Basically you have three hard ware in, Two software in (five in in total) and then five outputs: A1,A2,A3,B1,B2.  This means you can send DCS sound out to two channels at the same time, one for headphones and one for transducers, you can also send comms just to headphones. Harder to explain than it will be once you see it. 

I'm figuring it out. Found a good tutorial.  You mentioned in an old post that you use the EQ to cut off higher frequencies?  Would you mind sharing what your EQ settings look like that did that best?

Edit: I have it working. Getting DCS sounds to my speakers/headset and the shaker.  Now I just need to tune it so I'm very interested in EQ settings you have found successful as a baseline. 

Thanks for all your help.

Edited January 18 by KeyserSoze62

[average_pilot]

In hope it may be helpful for someone and to highlight the benefit of native support, I've made a diagram of my current setup with one DIY transducer:

It's worth mentioning that the option in DCS to output headphone audio separated from the rest of the audio helps immensely. This way human voice and the various beeping from the aircraft never reach the transducer.

I'm using an old speakers amplifier to drive the transducer. Since it's connected with the subwoofer output the signal reaches the transducer filtered of mid and high frequencies and I don't have to do it with software on the computer.

I imagine a native solution would look like this:

DCS could generate a low frequency signal that while based on sound for authenticity (this way it would feel like complex noise and not a series of bumps for example), instead of being output by the sound engine it would rather come from the simulation/physics engine. This would allow for infinite flexibility to render the tactile side of flying aircraft.

Edited February 16 by average_pilot