General navigation of the MFDs?

[Floyd1212]

Is there a document available somewhere that describes how the UI of the MFDs works?  Not the underlying systems that it controls, but the user-interface itself.

I've watched the training videos Wags has released so far, and he eludes to some of this while describing the functions of the pages, but it seems like a 1 minute overview of how to "get around" in the MFDs would be useful place to start. 

Things like page-flips vs. sub-pages, toggle functions, "boxed" text, text with arrows over it, shaded text, etc.  It seems like there is a method to the madness (at least I hope there is), but it's not always obvious what to expect when pressing a button.

Thanks!

[Laser9]

Just search AH-64 Manual online and publicintelligence.net has the -10 manual which goes over all that.

[Floyd1212]

Well, there it is, on page 2-15.  Thanks!

Now the question is, do I print this entire manual for future reference?

I still maintain a simple 1 minute video would be nice.  I'm sure when the mod is out some of the regular YouTubers will produce some of this helpful content.

[Raptor9]

@Floyd1212, FYI, the real world manual isn't the best at describing these things, or explaining UI logic. Personally, I think anyone that reads that manual to figure out how the DCS Apache will behave are wasting their time for what they are trying to accomplish.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Raptor9

[LooseSeal]

22 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

I still maintain a simple 1 minute video would be nice.  I'm sure when the mod is out some of the regular YouTubers will produce some of this helpful content.

Perhaps Crash Laobi will gift us a wonderful 1-minute expletive-laden delve into it. An Apache series from him would be great. Just full of him randomly swearing at George.

[Raptor9]

Initial MPD navigation can be done via two methods: Fixed Action Buttons (FAB) or via the Menu page.  FAB's are the black buttons around the bottom corners and provide immediate access to the FCR (Fire Control Radar), WPN (Weapons), TSD (Tactical Situation Display), A/C (Aircraft), COM (Comms), and VID (Video) pages.  The Menu page is accessed by pressing the black M button on the bottom row and allows selection of those same pages from an expanded list of pages.

When entering a main page, that page is called the "top-level" page.  From there you can access different sub-pages, formats and menus using the gray, bezel Variable Action Buttons (VAB).  The top level page is always denoted with text above the M (Menu) button at B1 (Bottom row, 1st button from left to right). If that text is boxed, example [TSD], then you are on the "top-level" page.  Available sub-page selections are denoted with text that has a small arrow running across the top of the text.  When you press the bezel button next to this text, that sub-page is entered and denoted by a box appearing around that text, and the box surrounding the top-level text at B1 being removed.  If you enter another sub-page from that initial sub-page, the next sub-page will become boxed in bright green whereas the previous sub-page is boxed in dim green.

In essence, you can visualize the MPD tree by seeing the un-boxed text above B1, followed by the dim box around the first sub-page, then the bright box around the current sub-page.

Having said all that, there are a variety of MPD bezel option types that denote toggles, system states, data entries using the keyboard, and expanded pop-out selections.  Each looks a certain way to show exactly what you are about to select.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Raptor9

[WobblyFlops]

On 1/29/2022 at 6:22 PM, Laser9 said:

Just search AH-64 Manual online and publicintelligence.net has the -10 manual which goes over all that.

DCS modules by their very nature are going to be simplified compared to the real world counterpart. Certain pages, functions, limitations and techniques may not apply and without having the product you simply won't know what will apply to the game and what will not. Using the real manual to learn about a video game product is a pointless exercise and we haven't even touched on the very problematic legal aspect of your suggestion.

[nachomaga]

21 hours ago, WobblyFlops said:

DCS modules by their very nature are going to be simplified compared to the real world counterpart. Certain pages, functions, limitations and techniques may not apply and without having the product you simply won't know what will apply to the game and what will not. Using the real manual to learn about a video game product is a pointless exercise and we haven't even touched on the very problematic legal aspect of your suggestion.

I’m just in the middle. I read some parts of NATOPS manual of Tomcat and Hornet and some things are useful, others don’t, in my opinion.

Even with ED manual, you can learn all he procedures and things “by the book”, but I realized that I’m only doing 60% of the things I had learn, and, if possible, I do in simplified way. Yes, I’m lazy, hehehe...

Back to the real manual, perhaps some flight procedures might be useful to read before the release. Systems? Well, not sure what I’m going to use when we have the Apache. I learned many things in other modules that I didn’t use in the game, I prefer to wait this time.

Edited February 1, 2022 by nachomaga

[Raptor9]

The real manual doesn't tell you how to fly or fight. All it does is say "When you press this button labeled this on this page, it will toggle this option."

It says very little about what that option actually does, when it should be used, what other things are affected by using that option, etc. There are some basic descriptions of symbology and systems, but the people that wrote it are neither the engineers that built it, nor the pilots that fly it. Not to mention there are inaccuracies and typos in it.

[Floyd1212]

Thanks for the replies. 

Most of what I was looking for is in the -10 manual in this case.  And based on the videos released by ED so far, it would appear they are modeling this correctly in the module; as I would expect, considering it is the way you get around in the MPDs.

@Raptor9's further description of drilling down into the menus was also very helpful.  I think I can follow Wags' tutorials better now, knowing how to read the labels around the screens, and what to expect will happen when a button is pressed.

[ARM505]

To second what Raptor9 says, I will comment on the sometimes ridiculously useless nature of real manuals - I literally just helped a friend with a technical exam, and despite us both puzzling over the Flight Crew Operating Manual (in this case, FCOM2 for the B738), neither of us could find the answer, because it simply didn't go into the level of detail required. The FCTM (Flight Crew Training Manual) elaborates a bit on recommended techniques, but the bottom line is that these are meant to be used in conjuction with actual, real world training by experienced instructors following company/unit SOP's and standards. The books are references, and often blunt to the point of being quite superficial.

 

That being said, DCS actually does an excellent job for a PC sim in modelling the real thing - I remember when the F18 came out, sans manual, and the comment was 'just use the NATOPS manual' - which, to their credit, was actually close enough to be of genuine use.

Edited February 2, 2022 by ARM505

[WobblyFlops]

3 hours ago, ARM505 said:

That being said, DCS actually does an excellent job for a PC sim in modelling the real thing - I remember when the F18 came out, sans manual, and the comment was 'just use the NATOPS manual' - which, to their credit, was actually close enough to be of genuine use

DCS implements some things where the NATOPS would apply while there are many, many other areas which aren't implemented. Unless we have the chance to extensively test the module, we can't know in advance what will be implemented and what won't. 

[ARM505]

Perhaps I should clarify - what is there, is generally as the manual states. Parts that are missing, are missing in their entirety, and don't really detract in the modelling of the parts that are there - put another way, the manual is useful in that it is applicable to those bits that are actually in the sim. It's a generalisation, but....