TADS suddenly moving away while in CPG seat

[sirrah]

Earlier this week, I started a thread about this issue I'm having. I think a moderator tagged it with "solution". After that, there was some other discussion there and the thread somewhat derailed. Also, I thought I found the issue.. Unfortunately, today I discovered I have not...

 

I'm having a problem when sitting in the CPG seat, operating the TADS. Every so now and then (seems/feels completely random) my TADS just starts moving on its own, without me slaving. It might be caused by pressing the laser trigger, but it doesn't always happen, so I'm not really sure.. 

Luckily I have been able save a track file, showing my issue. At 9min 20sec 

 

In this track file, you'll see me:

• Do a cold and dark startup (very VERY abbreviated version  )
• Wait for INS to align
• Switch to CPG seat
• Switch on TADS
• WAS Hellfires
• Switch on laser
• Press Sight Select Switch - Right/TADS
• Hit slave button and find target
• Have PLT George AI move a little closer to the target
• Once back in hover - Manually slave to target again
• And then at 9:22, with the TADS on target, I press the lase trigger and my TADS suddenly goes off target and moves erratically (and eventually to boresight position if I'm not mistaking)

 

My initial though was, to have an issue with either my sight slave button bind, or my RHG manual track X and Y-axis. But as you can see below, I have just one hotas button bound to Sight Slave and no axis bound to manual track...

 

This issue is so frustrating that I'm at the point of giving up the CPG seat 

(you can imagine that constantly having the TADS suddenly go AWOL on me, while trying to attack a SAM unit before it attacks me, is really annoying)

 

I truly hope someone can tell me what I'm doing wrong 

 

 

(deliberately not posted in bug section, as at the moment I assume it's my mistake)

TADS going wild at 9m20s.trk

Edited April 17, 2022 by sirrah

[Swampy]

I had this happen to me and it turned out to be because I had the liner motion controller bound to a switch on my HOTAS and with synchronization on, even though I wasn't pressing it, it would be on without knowing it.  

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Watched your track. Your lasing was fine. When you hit Slave, it slaved the TADS to your ACQ source which was set as FXD (Fixed - Boresight). So the TADS LOS 'flew' immediately to Boresight (usually the sky, depending on where your aircraft is pointing).

FXD is usually the default ACQ. If you are in TADS as Sight, you could change your ACQ to say GHS (CPG HMD), a Target Point (TG) or Waypoint (WP). Pressing the Slave button immediately moves the TADS LOS to whatever ACQ (look for the dotted cross) you have selected. If you stay in FXD, don't slave since in the track you already have the target in your TADS crosshairs. Just lase and fire.

ACQ is just a reference point to cue you to where to look, to where your target is at. For example, if your targets are smack at WP2, set your ACQ to WP2. Hit Slave and the TADS LOS will redirect to WP2. Then hit Slave again to UNSLAVE so that you can use the RHG Manual Tracker to slew and refine the TADS crosshairs onto the exact desired target. (If you don't unslave, your TADS LOS will be stuck at the WP2 spot, ie. it is still slaved and you will not be able to slew the TADS crosshairs). Then lase and fire. Of course, the target has to be within your TADS FOV limits and weapon launch parameters.

If say using GHS as ACQ, look at your target and hit slave. Your TADS LOS will be directed to what you are looking at. Then unslave and you can look at your TADS display and refine as above (you can turn off IHADSS so it's not in the way when you are looking at the display). Or, you could continue to just look at the picture in your IHADSS since it has a zoomable/slewable overlay of what the TADS sees. That may be a bit disorienting though since you'll have to distinguish between what you are looking at with your physical eye (the target or landscape) and what is being projected from the TADS view which could be zoomed in. But you can adjust the contrast/FLIR levels so it's more distinguishable. Hope this helps.      

Edited April 18, 2022 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[sirrah]

6 hours ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Watched your track. Your lasing was fine. When you hit Slave, it slaved the TADS to your ACQ source which was set as FXD (Fixed - Boresight). So the TADS LOS 'flew' immediately to Boresight (usually the sky, depending on where your aircraft is pointing).

 

But here's the thing. I 100% most definitely did not press the sight slave button. I deliberately bound the sight slave button to a HOTAS switch that I can't accidentally press.

Also, I don't have the sight slave button bound to any other HOTAS, as you can see in my screenshot. So what else can cause the sight slave button to be activated?

 

This is mind boggling

 

 

Thank you both for trying to help by the way! @Swampy I'll have a look later today, to check what you're suggesting

Edited April 18, 2022 by sirrah

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

1 hour ago, sirrah said:

But here's the thing. I 100% most definitely did not press the sight slave button. I deliberately bound the sight slave button to a HOTAS switch that I can't accidentally press.

Also, I don't have the sight slave button bound to any other HOTAS, as you can see in my screenshot. So what else can cause the sight slave button to be activated?

 

Not at my DCS PC now but just to check...
a) Did you widen the Hotas column at the Slave command to be sure no other button was programmed in accidentally?
b) Just curious what ACQ were you in whenever you hit slave to find your targets? WP? TG? GHS?
c) What did you bind RHG Manual Track (TADS slew) to if not the axes?

Edited April 18, 2022 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[sirrah]

1 hour ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Not at my DCS PC now but just to check...
a) Did you widen the Hotas column at the Slave command to be sure no other button was programmed in accidentally?
b) Just curious what ACQ were you in whenever you hit slave to find your targets? WP? TG? GHS?
c) What did you bind RHG Manual Track (TADS slew) to if not the axes?

 

a) Yes, I triple checked my keybinds (only made the columns smaller to make em fit on one screenshot)

b) Also not at my pc now, but pretty sure that ACQ (the one on the left mpd weapon page, right?) was on FXD the entire time. Iirc, I pressed the Sight Select Switch Right to select TADS in my HMD, and then hit the Sight Slave button to be able to use the Manual Track TADS slew.

c) Right now I have RHG Manual Track Slew bound to a 4-way hat switch (tested the switch and it functions well). Initially I had Manual Track bound to a stick X and Y-axis, but I wanted to rule out possible axis spikes, so I cleared those binds.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

1 hour ago, sirrah said:

a) Yes, I triple checked my keybinds (only made the columns smaller to make em fit on one screenshot)

b) Also not at my pc now, but pretty sure that ACQ (the one on the left mpd weapon page, right?) was on FXD the entire time. Iirc, I pressed the Sight Select Switch Right to select TADS in my HMD, and then hit the Sight Slave button to be able to use the Manual Track TADS slew.

c) Right now I have RHG Manual Track Slew bound to a 4-way hat switch (tested the switch and it functions well). Initially I had Manual Track bound to a stick X and Y-axis, but I wanted to rule out possible axis spikes, so I cleared those binds.

I recorded your track so it was easier to play back in slow motion at the moment the TADS LOS jumped (got slaved). It's very strange. Staring at the animation, your RHG FCR Scan Size hat actually moved down-left and your RHG slave button was depressed at the same time. I took control, lased and moved the Scan Size hat but it didn't cause that issue until I hit slave. Hmm..  Does this happen with other ACQs? Try remapping Slave to another button and test again?

Edited April 18, 2022 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[sirrah]

24 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

I recorded your track so it was easier to play back in slow motion at the moment the TADS LOS jumped (got slaved). It's very strange. Staring at the animation, your RHG FCR Scan Size hat moved down-left and your RHG slave was depressed at the same time. I took control, lased and moved the Scan Size hat but it didn't cause that issue until I hit slave. Hmm..  

 

Thanks for having another look. So you managed to reproduce the issue when taking control of the aircraft? Or did I misunderstood you?

 

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Thanks for having another look. So you managed to reproduce the issue when taking control of the aircraft? Or did I misunderstood you?
 

‘Reproduced’ only if I press slave. The FCR Scan size switch doesn’t affect it (not that it would). But I am not really reproducing the strange behaviour you report since pressing the slave button is suppose to do exactly that. So it seems something is pressing the Slave button even though you are not, as you say. But it’s strange your RHG FCR Scan switch was moving at that precise moment too. Have you tried an online repair?

[Kharrn]

@sirrah

Watched your track in slow motion. Just a second before your TADS slews to its fixed position (cause of ACQ FIX) your RHG slave button is beeing depressed !!!

So yes, when you SightSelect TADS and press Slave, your TADS will slave to the ACQ, in this case to FIX.

 

IMHO this can only happen when there is some involuntary input on that button or a keystroke. In your case something seems to "activate" JOY_BTN 2. I would guess some external programm or the software of your stick.

[sirrah]

26 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

‘Reproduced’ only if I press slave. The FCR Scan size switch doesn’t affect it (not that it would). But I am not really reproducing the strange behaviour you report since pressing the slave button is suppose to do exactly that. So it seems something is pressing the Slave button even though you are not, as you say. But it’s strange your RHG FCR Scan switch was moving at that precise moment too. Have you tried an online repair?

I did have the 4 RHG FCR scan size options mapped to my Joystick (although I know they are not implemented yet, I thought I might as well already bind them to my stick). I just cleared those binds and I'll test now if the issue reappears.

I'll report back here later.

2 minutes ago, Kharrn said:

@sirrah

Watched your track in slow motion. Just a second before your TADS slews to its fixed position (cause of ACQ FIX) your RHG slave button is beeing depressed !!!

So yes, when you SightSelect TADS and press Slave, your TADS will slave to the ACQ, in this case to FIX.

 

IMHO this can only happen when there is some involuntary input on that button or a keystroke. In your case something seems to "activate" JOY_BTN 2. I would guess some external programm or the software of your stick.

Thanks so much for all the kind help guys, really appreciated!

I already bound the slave button to another stick button, but the issue remained. I'll first try and see if un-binding the FCR scan size switch helps, and if not, I'll un-bind the slave button and just use the keyboard command, to rule out an issue with my joystick.

[Kharrn]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb sirrah:

I already bound the slave button to another stick button, but the issue remained. I'll first try and see if un-binding the FCR scan size switch helps, and if not, I'll un-bind the slave button and just use the keyboard command, to rule out an issue with my joystick.

What keyboard command did you put the SLAVE to? cause my guess is that it really is not a DCS related issue but something externally, like joystick or keyboard giving wrong (double or multi) inputs - maybe cause of a software that is running. Just my guess! hope you can find the issue and resolve

[sirrah]

I found it!!

As many of you have been saying, it is indeed a hardware issue.

Somehow, my old TM Cougar stick has an issue, that very occasionally happens. It happens so randomly and rarely, that I wasn't able to easily reproduce the issue when looking at my controller output. With a bit of luck, I managed to capture what's causing the issue:

In the above picture, I'm only holding the trigger button, yet all buttons are somehow activated (including the buttons I bound to "sight slave")

 

This happens only a fraction of a second and only when I give a small axis input... This clarifies everything!

 

Not sure what's going on with my Cougar, but it is about 2 decades old, so I'm afraid the PCB is on the end of its life span. I'll take my issue to the TM sub-forum from here.

 

Thanks again for all your help.

 

[Floyd1212]

nice sleuthing all around

[ARM505]

Mine did that when the joystick connection (that PS2-like plug between the joystick handle and base) got loose. I had a homemade extension, so it happened more than once.

[sirrah]

3 hours ago, ARM505 said:

Mine did that when the joystick connection (that PS2-like plug between the joystick handle and base) got loose. I had a homemade extension, so it happened more than once.

Thanks mate, I'll look into that