Rotor Anti Ice

[Niehorst]

I just tried to fly during cold conditions. (-2°C/Snow)

 

I switch on the Rotor Anti Ice System. The Switch is in upper Position. (Overhead-Panel shows its activated)

 

But EKRAN keeps telling me to switch on the Rotor Anti Ice!!!

Bug?

 

So, yesterday I was engaging some US Army Redskins. And at round about 270 kph in NOE Flight one Engine failed. Was very hard for me to keep the bird in the air and disengage those apaches. I didnt hear any bullet impacts and no enemy was in a position to shoot me at this time. The heliopter showed no damadges.

 

Rotor Anti ICE / Engine Anti ICE are activated from startup, am I right?

And for the engines you HAVE TO CHOOSE between Dust Protect or ANti ICE.... right?

 

Wish you all a WHITE BATTLEFIELD...

and of course marry christmas:)

Edited December 22, 2008 by Niehorst

[ZaltysZ]

Deicing system of Ka-50 is based on hot air flow, so I think it is more effective when engines are working at higher power settings and producing hotter gases. Avoiding prolonged descents and long hovers is good idea in cold weather.

[Niehorst]

But during hover you need a lot of engine power. . .

The hole helicopter weight lifted against gravity only by the vertical force created by the engines.

By the way, I guess the gases exhausted by the engines should be hot enough, even in idle.

Correct me if Im wrong. Never observed the gas temperature indicator during flights.

 

But first of all: Why does EKRAN keep ****ing me up when the Anti-Ice System should be runnin!?!?

Edited December 22, 2008 by Niehorst

[ZaltysZ]

That message of EKRAN is a bit confusing. It will show every time icing is detected, no matter in what position deicing switches are. It should be taken as "Warning: icing detected" and not as "Warning: don't forget to turn deicing".

 

Power required for hover depends on mass and altitude. Hovering isn't hard on engines as climbing or accelerating. You can check that by looking at RPM and EGT.

[Slayer]

But during hover you need a lot of engine power. . .

The hole helicopter weight lifted against gravity only by the vertical force created by the engines.

By the way, I guess the gases exhausted by the engines should be hot enough, even in idle.

Correct me if Im wrong. Never observed the gas temperature indicator during flights.

 

But first of all: Why does EKRAN keep ****ing me up when the Anti-Ice System should be runnin!?!?

 

I had the exat same failure flying over mountains with all deicing on

 

Guess it's the same as the fire extinguisher system...just because it's there isn't 100% insurance that you won't get a fire that it can't put out.

 

My guess would be that at some point it gets too cold and the heating elements are overwhelmed.

I would also make sure you have the other switch on the back right panel for anti ice turned on. Once everything is on you should see the green indicator lights in the overhead showing that the heaters are on.

[hitman]

Rotor anti-icing is activated prior to when icing conditions are expected, hence the name anti-ice. The rotors wouldnt use bleed air from the engines, but I would assume it uses a mixture of isopropyl alcohol to prevent ice formation. You dont want de-icer systems on a rotor blade that long because it would cause run-back of the ice.

 

Engine ant-ice shouldnt be turned on at engine startup or kept on continuously. This causes a drop in engine manifold pressure (in turbines it decreases the air pressure, thus slowing down the gas).

 

In turn, Rotor anti-ice is activated before entering a weather system that is suspected for icing. Engine de-icing is accomplished when a drop in turbine pressure or manifold pressure is detected. If it a de-ice system, it is activated when ice is suspected. If its an anti-ice, turn it on when the system is up, running, and the engine is up to its operating temperatures.

[mvsgas]

-I have no Idea how KA-50 anti ice works, but, using what I know form other aircraft (F-16, F-117) Different systems work together to try to eliminate ice, they will not completely prevent the ice build up, but, would diminish the amount of ice and control ice build up to some degree. On the F-16, when you receive the "Anti-ice" light, The system is merely telling you that it has detected ice formation and it is turning electrical heaters on, together with engine ECS (Environmental Control System) air, or "Bleed air" on. This does not mean that is some thing wrong with the aircraft, just a advisory light. I think that is why the EKRAN keep reminding us about the ice on the rotor blade. I think it is just reminding us that it has detected ice.

-About the engine shutting down. Maybe someone at ED Team can let us know Temp limitations for KA-50 operations, i.e. minimum/maximum operational ambient temperature for TV3-117VMA engines. Maybe below a certain ambient temperature, the engine do not produce enough "bleed air" to control ice built up, resulting in ice damage of the turbine and turning engine off.

-Maybe AirTito or Alpha16 can let us know how it really works, as a mechanic I am very curious about this system and it's inner workings as well.

Edited December 23, 2008 by mvsgas

[Niehorst]

 

Power required for hover depends on mass and altitude. Hovering isn't hard on engines as climbing or accelerating. You can check that by looking at RPM and EGT.

 

 

Ever attempt to hover with full weapon payload after the loss of one engine???

 

You'll see that you can hold the bird in the air while moving, but in a hover you will constantly loose altitude until touching the ground!

 

Another fact:

If you are decelarating until hovering you have to increase the collective.

And more collective means more engine charge!

 

Sure it isnt more than during climbing or accelerating. Thats what Physics are all about:smilewink:

[AlphaOneSix]

Engine ice protection is done by bleeding hot air from the compressor section of the engine and redirecting it back to the front of the engine and the dust protector housings. This bleed of air is what causes a loss in power. The dust protectors by themselves also use bleed air from the engine. This is why the switch for the engines is either anti-ice OR dust protection. If you have the switch in the anti-ice position, the dust protectors are running whether you like it or not.

 

Rotor de-ice is done electrically by heating elements on the leading edges of the rotor blades.

 

I use the terms "anti-ice" and "de-ice" on purpose. For the engines, it is an anti-ice system, designed to prevent the formation of ice before it ever begins. This system should be turned on when you believe that you will be flying in icing conditions. For the rotors, you typically wait until ice is detected before turning it on, but in the game I would just turn it on at the same time as the engine anti-ice and pretend to use it as an anti-ice system rather than de-ice. Letting the rotor de-ice run for an extended period without any ice on the rotors may reduce the life of the rotor blades. It's also a very large draw on the aircraft's electrical system. I don't think either of those two effects is modeled in the game.

[RvETito]

Rotor icing is not modeled currently in BS. Ice detector however is and it it is what brings the message to the EKRAN from time to time.

 

Engine icing is also modeled so be careful to turn it on when flying in icing conditions.

 

This is a bit odd to me though- in Ka-32 both the engines (same as Ka-50 except for the dust protectors) and the rotor have automatic ice protection. There is a temperature probe at the compressor inlet of each engine and at +5'C and less it energizes the bleed air valve to supply the inlet guide vanes and the intake with hot air. In case the automatic ice protection fails the pilot has a backup manual operation of the bleed valve which is what we have in BS. The rotor ice protection (208V 3-phase AC up to 80A) is automatically turned on by the ice detector installed usually on the top of the helicopter. In case there is a ice warning and the rotor heating system doesn't turn on there is a backup manual switch. Both the engines and the rotor have the same 3-position switches- MANUAL-AUTO-OFF. By default it's on AUTO. Very strange it's not like that in Ka-50, where there is only one crew member and it should be automatized to a higher degree.

[Yo-Yo]

Rotor icing IS modelled... :) and you will have the blade mass/MOI changes as well as airfoil aerodynamic characteristics deterioration.

But due to the Mach heating the most significant parts - blade tips get iced at lower OAT than roots and engine inlets.

[RvETito]

:doh:

 

I had another impression from our correspondence :) Check PM, Dmitriy.

[Yo-Yo]

WE finished our feature list as firemen... do not be surprised. :)

 

Icing, fire exting. system, oil radiators, etc

 

oil radiators was done as the night before deadline ended... :)

[RvETito]

OMG, I was hoping the last minute checks, preparations and tons of paper work that I was overloaded in my real job everytime the helicopters were going on a mission will remain there. Now I see that curse is following them even in the virtual reality...

 

It ain't easy to work on helicopters, both for real and virtual :D