[HELP] Cerberus North - M15

[paloncho]

Hello guys.

I have to say this campaign is AMAZING. The history, all the documentation, the geopolitical situation in the region, everything.

I'm getting almost to the end of it but M15 is driving me crazy. I've tried two approaches only, both though the 'south' route :

1st approach was WP3 --> WP9 --> WP4 (TGT). After passing WP9, descended from 25000ft to 15000ft in order to maybe mask a bit from the SA-10 and from the Rayak airfield SA-15 with the East mountains of the Bekaa valley. Hoping the Growlers to help me, I got shut down by Damascus SA-15.

2nd approach the same but at 25000+ ft, in order to get out of the range of the Damascus SA-15 and to increase the JSOWs range. Could launch all four JSOWs but got shot down by the target SA-10. Looks like the EW does not cover as in another missions (besides, I was shot IR missiles by a MIG-19 patrol that was shut down by M-2000 (Mystic 3 flight - lucky scape fully loaded with all the bombs).

My time on WP9 was 6:20+, so was inside of the EW VUL time window.

One very very weird stuff is that after leaving the Tanker and head to WP3, Woody flies down and got stuck at 17000ft at M0.3, so no freaking way to get him to initially engage the SA-10 with HARMs. In the moment I can order Woody to fire the HARMs, he's 25nm behind me.

 

Anyways, I'm trying again via WP3 --> WP8 --> WP4 (TGT), but I think the outcome will be the same, if not shutdown by the Rayak airfield SA-15, I'll be definitely caught by the SA-10 (I'm discarding low level flight due to all the MANPADS/SA-9/AAA threats, fuel consumption restraints and killing the JSOWs range).

 

Cheers!

 

[ChillNG]

51 minutes ago, paloncho said:

Hello guys.

I have to say this campaign is AMAZING. The history, all the documentation, the geopolitical situation in the region, everything.

I'm getting almost to the end of it but M15 is driving me crazy. I've tried two approaches only, both though the 'south' route :

1st approach was WP3 --> WP9 --> WP4 (TGT). After passing WP9, descended from 25000ft to 15000ft in order to maybe mask a bit from the SA-10 and from the Rayak airfield SA-15 with the East mountains of the Bekaa valley. Hoping the Growlers to help me, I got shut down by Damascus SA-15.

2nd approach the same but at 25000+ ft, in order to get out of the range of the Damascus SA-15 and to increase the JSOWs range. Could launch all four JSOWs but got shot down by the target SA-10. Looks like the EW does not cover as in another missions (besides, I was shot IR missiles by a MIG-19 patrol that was shut down by M-2000 (Mystic 3 flight - lucky scape fully loaded with all the bombs).

My time on WP9 was 6:20+, so was inside of the EW VUL time window.

One very very weird stuff is that after leaving the Tanker and head to WP3, Woody flies down and got stuck at 17000ft at M0.3, so no freaking way to get him to initially engage the SA-10 with HARMs. In the moment I can order Woody to fire the HARMs, he's 25nm behind me.

 

Anyways, I'm trying again via WP3 --> WP8 --> WP4 (TGT), but I think the outcome will be the same, if not shutdown by the Rayak airfield SA-15, I'll be definitely caught by the SA-10 (I'm discarding low level flight due to all the MANPADS/SA-9/AAA threats, fuel consumption restraints and killing the JSOWs range).

 

Cheers!

 

Hey man thanks for the feedback, glad you're enjoying!

So....mission 15 has multiple ways you can approach it, with different challenges and AI reactions depending on your chosen route.  As a side note I'll check out Woody's behavior, sounds like the AoA bug on the Hornet cropping up again.

I'll talk through the main options below - for anyone reading - beware SPOILERS!

Spoiler

So mission is built to encourage experimentation, you can attack in roughly 3 main ways - with variations and pros/cons to each.  The idea behind this is to get the player to weigh up the various options and hopefully feel awesome when they pull it off!

OPTION 1 - through the Bekaa valley.  You can do this at low altitude...really low is ok with a pop up attack into JSOW release at end.  If you're low but not really low then this is v dangerous as Bekaa valley is very hostile with AAA and MANPADS. 

Higher altitude much safer,  the SA-15 can be overflown due to it's 20k ceiling but the SA-15 can more easily shoot down your HARMS/JSOWS this approach.  The jamming zone is centered on the Bekka so providing you don't get too close to the SA10 and it burns through the jamming this is probably the safest route.  Best advice on this attack is to get Newt to kill SA-15 with Harms, use the jamming for protection and kill SA10 radars at standoff range with JSOW. 

Main dangers: If you screw it up and fail to take out the SA10 radars you can end up high in the sky in full view of the SA10 which is not good news.  Also this route lacks surprise as Syrians see something coming because of the jamming screen and bring additional SAMs online (but you won't get this if you choose to go low in the Bekaa).

In summary this is a good way to attack so long as you're in and out quick and don't screw it up.  Loiter too long and lose the jamming and it gets messy.

OPTION 2:

This is the way you were trying - roughly speaking - hooking south towards Nasiriyah AB and then in towards the target.  Doing this at altitude is not recommended as you are outside the Bekaa which is where the jamming is focused so the SA-10 can see and engage you.  If Woody behaves and fires his HARMS he will force the SA-10 radars offline temporarily, giving you a window to utilise for a pop up and JSOW release (there is a failsafe built in so if Woody AI goes wrong the HARM is still called as fired and you get this benefit - fail safe is I believe 6.5 mins after requesting HARM strike).  Going lower will mask you from the SA-10 but there is lots of low level surprises this way...SA-8, 15 and ZSU-23-4 scattered about, all can be avoided simply enough at low level as they are short range but if they surprise you they can be very dangerous.  Main advantage of this route is you have more surprise as everyone's looking at the jamming area...so less new SAMS come online to threaten you, it also bypasses the issue of the SA-15 shooting down your JSOWS.

OPTION 3:

I am not aware of anyone trying this route yet..at least no-ones ever come forwards and said it, not even in beta testing.  From the start push south towards Khalkhalal AB then drive in west to the target between Damascus and the Golan.  Main threats to this - lack of jamming cover, also if you go outside of the fighter sweep window then you can be alone and vulnerable to fighters at Damascus.   Its also the longest route so fuel is more of an issue, you also need to consider your route back out, fuel might not allow you to come out the way you went in.

Get your timing right though and again you have more surprise as everyone's looking at the jamming area...so less new SAMS come online to threaten you, and it again also bypasses the issue of the SA-15 shooting down your JSOWS.  At low level its safer then the Nasiriyah AB route as there are less potent low level SAMS.

This route does have a couple of other surprises though depending on your altitude (fighters/SA-6s).

Anyway hope that is useful, good luck!

Edited June 14, 2022 by ChillNG

[MacaoP20]

Hi @ChillNG,

 

I second @paloncho words. This campaign is amazing. I just finished it yesterday.

I actually took what you might call Option 3. Had to use the mission editor and your documentation to create some reference waypoints so I could keep clear of the low ground threats along the way (I kept high as long as possible but then came down as soon as I turned west). Also, like you said, you might get some unexpected company in the air while in the west leg . Using this route I found timming the HARMs is everything and I could not avoid entering Israel's airspace. I kept east of the moutains but still got the warning the same way (didn't really understand why). I escaped using the same route but at a very high altitude to conserve fuel (was planning on more direct exit route but might have got spooked by some unexpected SAM's in the area) but had to get a drink on the home leg again (and was running real low on fuel already).

Thank you again for your outstading work,

 

[ChillNG]

2 hours ago, MacaoP20 said:

Hi @ChillNG,

 

I second @paloncho words. This campaign is amazing. I just finished it yesterday.

I actually took what you might call Option 3. Had to use the mission editor and your documentation to create some reference waypoints so I could keep clear of the low ground threats along the way (I kept high as long as possible but then came down as soon as I turned west). Also, like you said, you might get some unexpected company in the air while in the west leg . Using this route I found timming the HARMs is everything and I could not avoid entering Israel's airspace. I kept east of the moutains but still got the warning the same way (didn't really understand why). I escaped using the same route but at a very high altitude to conserve fuel (was planning on more direct exit route but might have got spooked by some unexpected SAM's in the area) but had to get a drink on the home leg again (and was running real low on fuel already).

Thank you again for your outstading work,

 

Great to hear, glad you enjoyed!

[84-Simba]

Still scratching my head with this one.
I cannot get the JSOWs to shack the SA-10 (probably shot down) but I managed to reach it and attack with guns.

If you go really low and buster you can approach the side from the valley and mask yourself from the SA-15 behind a little hill on the east side.

When you turn left, you are almost immediately above the SA-10 and almost in line to Brrrt both tall antennas.

My main concern here is that JSOWs are not the best weapons should you decide to attack at low level/high speed and because of the mission being cut in half, you cannot edit the loadout.

That way of doing is good for players that want to skip AAR but it is a bit a problem when you seek immersion or want to adapt your strategy.

I'll see what I can do to shack the SA-15 before dropping the JSOWs but that will be tight in timing.

[bushido]

I have an issue with this mission with the mirage 2000 doing nothing at all. Aren't they supposed to push and clean the sky? They notice the Mig29, got clearance from sentinel to engage but nothing happens. The Mig 29 eventually comes at me and shoot me. (I can shoot 1 down with the 1 amraam I have but the other one shoot me)

Also the Mirage 2000 does not appears on the datalink so it is not easy to understand where they hide and how I can use them to protect me.

On the debrief it is indicated  they shoot the mig after I have been shooted at, looks like they magically pop up when I'm down to finally do what they are tasking for.

 

[84-Simba]

1 hour ago, bushido said:

I have an issue with this mission with the mirage 2000 doing nothing at all. Aren't they supposed to push and clean the sky? They notice the Mig29, got clearance from sentinel to engage but nothing happens. The Mig 29 eventually comes at me and shoot me. (I can shoot 1 down with the 1 amraam I have but the other one shoot me)

Also the Mirage 2000 does not appears on the datalink so it is not easy to understand where they hide and how I can use them to protect me.

On the debrief it is indicated  they shoot the mig after I have been shooted at, looks like they magically pop up when I'm down to finally do what they are tasking for.

 

Same, every time I tried I had to deal with them myself.

Waiting longer did not help and I was tighter in the timing to carry on the rest of the mission.

[bushido]

How did you manage ? I can get one with the amramm as they seems to only have short range IR missile but then I have only AIM9 and I'm fully loaded with the 4 JSOW plus 2 Bomb + the fuel tank, so no way I can dealt with the second one in a dog fight.

Not sure if Woody can be of any help ?

[84-Simba]

They do not react very well to the Amraam so I was taking one down with the 120.

The second one was trickier but the Aim-9 is all aspect.

Either a face-shot was reaching the target or at least it was forcing the Mig to manoeuver, leaving a window open to jump on him.

You actually have a very short TTK on this one so you have to be quick and effective.

And even then, you have to be very conservative with the fuel to complete the mission.

[bushido]

Thanks for the info.

@ChillNG it is the normal behaviour for Mystic 3 ? Are we supposed to deal with the Mig29 ourself ?

[ChillNG]

2 hours ago, bushido said:

Thanks for the info.

@ChillNG it is the normal behaviour for Mystic 3 ? Are we supposed to deal with the Mig29 ourself ?

Mystic will push at 06:20 as briefed, it's possible they are having issues engaging, air to air AI has been updated quite a bit since the campaign was released.  There is a failsafe built in, in case Mystic's AI fails, this will fire at approx 06:30 and destroy the Migs, so you can still proceed without getting into a fight with the Migs (intention is that you shouldn't have to), although I appreciate it might be a bit of a wait for some of you.  I'll run some tests in the next few days and see if there's an AI issue.

[bushido]

Yes it seems there is something broken with Mystic so we are on our own. Not sure having to wait until 6:30 is a viable option as it leave only 10 mn to push, kill and retreat before the whole package leave.

[ChillNG]

42 minutes ago, bushido said:

Yes it seems there is something broken with Mystic so we are on our own. Not sure having to wait until 6:30 is a viable option as it leave only 10 mn to push, kill and retreat before the whole package leave.

Are you finding the migs are engaging you?  (as opposed to you going to them) I've got a feeling that I set it up so as long as it's after the push time (06:20) they will focus on the Mirages, not you, so you might be able to bypass them and be ok.  But I'll do some checks and at the very least shorten the failsafe time to 06:25.

[bushido]

Yes the Mig are coming at me. So this time I anchor north of the Beka Valley and wait for the failsafe. Around 6:24 the Mig were really close to me  (visual on them) but the M2000 eventually kill them at that time and I manage to carry the mission.

You might want to revisit the M2000 behaviour as it seems they are not really pushing against the Mig but somewhat wait between waypoint 8 and 9.

Also for whatever reason they do not appears on the datalink at any time.

Edited January 21, 2023 by bushido

[ChillNG]

Just to close this one off for future reference.  M2000s do not contain data link (at least not in DCS editor).  Slightly modified Mystics AI behavior and shortened fail safe.  Will submit for future update.

[bushido]

Thanks for the feedback. Actually not sure the link 16 was integrated on the 2000 C. on the D and -5 for sure but maybe not on the C.

[Creasy85]

On 1/20/2023 at 11:32 PM, ChillNG said:

Are you finding the migs are engaging you?  (as opposed to you going to them) I've got a feeling that I set it up so as long as it's after the push time (06:20) they will focus on the Mirages, not you, so you might be able to bypass them and be ok.  But I'll do some checks and at the very least shorten the failsafe time to 06:25.

Same for me. the migs go after me, I am waiting north of WP8 until push time, then go with Spartan and escape them on low altitude. The failsafe triggers at 6:27. Then I fail to pop up and drop the JSOWs as I am in range of SA15 until I am way past dropping point. Also my timing is messed up, have to try something else.  Another time, managed to get shot down by nearby SA11 couple times or on egress low level by AAA. Great campaign, but this mission is sooo frustrating.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Creasy85

[5e EVC Chappy]

On 6/14/2022 at 4:06 PM, ChillNG said:

As a side note I'll check out Woody's behavior, sounds like the AoA bug on the Hornet cropping up again.

I concur. The bug is still there apparently. I flew the mission twice yesterday with two different approaches and after reviewing the TACVIEW tape Woody was incredibly slow and couldn't keep up, like M0.38! So he never fires his HARMs even if I ordered him to.
All my JSOWs ended up being shot down by either the SA-15 in the valley or the SA-10.

This mission is really challenging. Something I've never seen before.

Edited April 1, 2023 by 5e EVC Chappy

[5e EVC Chappy]

OK, serious question. Did anyone ever succeed this mission?
I've flown difficult missions before, but I'm truly lost with this one. None of the strategiy I tried worked. Ended up being shot down every single time.

[ChillNG]

6 hours ago, 5e EVC Chappy said:

OK, serious question. Did anyone ever succeed this mission?
I've flown difficult missions before, but I'm truly lost with this one. None of the strategiy I tried worked. Ended up being shot down every single time.

Have you looked on the spoiler above on June 14th 2022.  I list all the main strategies you can try there.

[5e EVC Chappy]

4 hours ago, ChillNG said:

Have you looked on the spoiler above on June 14th 2022.  I list all the main strategies you can try there.

Yes, I did.

[ChillNG]

1 hour ago, 5e EVC Chappy said:

Yes, I did.

 

 

Spoiler

Been quite a while since I last flew this one, my preferred way was always low and fast from the An Nasiriyah direction, just got to watch out for low level threats but they are less severe than the SA-10.  Get Woody to fire his HARMS (if the AI causes issues there's still a fail-safe so it will work), the SA-10 radars should then shut down, giving you a window for your JSOWS. 

 

[Pyrocumulous]

On 6/14/2022 at 10:06 AM, ChillNG said:

I'll talk through the main options below - for anyone reading - beware SPOILERS!

Sort of a sub-option of #1,

Spoiler

you can fly NOE along the seam in the topography on the Restricted Airspace line (west of Bekaa Valley), and have clear sailing all the way to the SA-10. You'll need to think about timing Woody's HARM shot, as he will be at low altitude with you, but still well above the valley floor. Works great with the given loadout, but you can even popup and loft eight GBU-12s safely onto the targets from this route. If Woody doesn't fire his HARM (on your schedule, anyway), the RWR tones provides some stress and they might intercept a JSOW or two, but you should be able to sweep at least the radars and command solo. If you get south of the target, you will lose all terrain masking.

 

[ChillNG]

9 hours ago, Pyrocumulous said:

Sort of a sub-option of #1,

  Hide contents

you can fly NOE along the seam in the topography on the Restricted Airspace line (west of Bekaa Valley), and have clear sailing all the way to the SA-10. You'll need to think about timing Woody's HARM shot, as he will be at low altitude with you, but still well above the valley floor. Works great with the given loadout, but you can even popup and loft eight GBU-12s safely onto the targets from this route. If Woody doesn't fire his HARM (on your schedule, anyway), the RWR tones provides some stress and they might intercept a JSOW or two, but you should be able to sweep at least the radars and command solo. If you get south of the target, you will lose all terrain masking.

 

Awesome, thanks!  Love to hear when people make new strategies! 

Edited May 8, 2023 by ChillNG