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Keep missing the base leg approach to Final


rocky

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Hi everyone!  I'm practicing how to do the overhead landing pattern but I keep missing the runway when I turn to final.  The tutorials make it look doable, bank 30 degrees, throttle control to keep the vector around 2-3 degrees below the horizon and straighten out to line up to the runway after 180 degrees. From watching the videos and trying to dissect them and reading the documentation it looks like I'm within the margin of the marks leading up to the turn as they're described but when I turn into final by the time I straighten out I'm usually far off to the side of the runway.  Very few times I've hit the line up zone but most times I don't.  Between the successes and failures I can't really find the difference of why.  I've attached track files of 2 failures and 1 success to show what's happened.  Could I ask for some help to explain what I'm doing wrong and for some advice on how to get more consistent with getting the runway lined up once I start that final turn?

OvrHeadLandMissionAlMinhad30AoBMissExample.miz_29061426_11-22.trk OvrHeadLandMissionMissedRunwaySmooth30AoB.miz_28062022_11-22.trk OvrHeadLandMissionAlMinhad30AoBGreatLanding.miz_30061248_11-22.trk

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There are several basic errors occurring.

First some geometry.

The overhead pattern is two half circles and two parallel lines.

In order to achieve the desired result, the two half circles must be the same radius and the lines must be parallel.

If you insist on using a 30 degree bank turn to final, the break turn MUST be equal to the radius of that turn to final. Errors in the initial break that will result in an overshoot on the final turn are any combination of too slow and too much G.

If you arrive out of the break turn the correct distance from the landing runway, you can still screw the pooch by not flying parallel to the runway. Most people naturally cheat towards the runway, resulting in getting too close and a subsequent over shoot on final.

You are doing all of the above.

In the Hornet (actually, any airplane flying a 30 degree bank at a similar speed), your distance from the runway on the downwind leg is about 1-1.5 nm.

One of the aids available in the Hornet is to put up the HSI page on scale 10 with a course line set to the base recovery course (BRC). With this setup, placing your wingtip on the DDI on the course line gives you the approximate correct distance from the runway on downwind.

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Don't get too wrapped up in precise numbers and procedures to the exclusion of flying the aircraft.

All flying is constant error correction.

The difference between a good pilot and a bad one is the speed and magnitude of the required error correction.

An example is your use of speed brake in the break turn. You are extending your speed brake prior to initiating your break turn. You are already on speed and altitude so doing this is actually causing you problems.

It is contributing to your excessively tight break turn by slowing you down too much, resulting in a small radius.

Speed brake as necessary. It is not necessary for a 350 knot level break to downwind.

Do everything for a reason and the reason is not because someone said it was the proper procedure.

 


Edited by =475FG= Dawger
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3 hours ago, Razor18 said:

Maybe you  should place your question in the corresponding airframe topic, but I can't even tell what type you are experimenting with, because you never mention it in your text.

Apologies.  I should have mentioned it was for the Hornet.  I saw there were other posts related to asking for help on specific aspects of flying in this section so I thought this was the correct forum section to place it in.   If it is incorrect I can ask a moderator to move it to the correct place.  

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4 minutes ago, rocky said:

Apologies.  I should have mentioned it was for the Hornet.  I saw there were other posts related to asking for help on specific aspects of flying in this section so I thought this was the correct forum section to place it in.   If it is incorrect I can ask a moderator to move it to the correct place.  

It really isn't an airframe specific issue. It's basic airmanship. Learning to fly the overhead by rote procedure specific to one aircraft isn't the best path forward.

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Thank you Dawger!👍  This makes perfect sense.  I will change up how I do my break turn and try to gain more distance from the runway.  The tip about DDI is awesome.  I will incorporate it into my training session! 

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32 minutes ago, rocky said:

Thank you Dawger!👍  This makes perfect sense.  I will change up how I do my break turn and try to gain more distance from the runway.  The tip about DDI is awesome.  I will incorporate it into my training session! 

as far as I know, speedbrake remains in for an overhead using the Hornet, both shore and carrier patterns. Once you are rolling down the runway though, pop it out to help with the braking.

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14 minutes ago, Ala12Rv-Tundra said:

as far as I know, speedbrake remains in for an overhead using the Hornet, both shore and carrier patterns. Once you are rolling down the runway though, pop it out to help with the braking.

This is what I mean about getting wrapped up in procedure. 
 

Fly the airplane.

If you need speed brake, use it.

 If you don’t need it, don’t deploy it just because some diagram says speed brake. 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, rocky said:

Apologies.  I should have mentioned it was for the Hornet.  I saw there were other posts related to asking for help on specific aspects of flying in this section so I thought this was the correct forum section to place it in.   If it is incorrect I can ask a moderator to move it to the correct place.  

It's not the end of the world, I just tought if you post in the proper topic, you will get more airframe specific answers without asking what you want advise for. No biggy!

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I'm getting it more right than wrong now.  Thank you again Dawger.  The advice and explanation you gave was right on to get me over this hump.  👍 There's still so much to learn and get better at but this journey is a fun one. 

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4 hours ago, rocky said:

I'm getting it more right than wrong now.  Thank you again Dawger.  The advice and explanation you gave was right on to get me over this hump.  👍 There's still so much to learn and get better at but this journey is a fun one. 

Its all about learning what the "picture" should look like when abeam your landing point on downwind. It doesn't matter how you get to that point. If you arrive at the correct spot on speed and altitude, your turn to final will work out. And once you know what it looks like, you will know when you are out of position and what you need to do to correct it.

And remember you are a virtual fighter pilot. Pull at least 4 G's in every traffic pattern and never, ever fly a straight in approach in a healthy aircraft when you can see the ground.

Ideally, supersonic at the IP, 10 feet off the deck and a 6 g break 🙂

 

 

 

 

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"Don't get too wrapped up in precise numbers and procedures to the exclusion of flying the aircraft."

 

That...

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