MIP monitor and loss of FPS/smoothness ?

[FZG_Immel]

Let me preface this post saying that this is in no way a criticism of Winwing hardware or anything of the kind. I am merely trying to understand the issue, trying to figure out if it comes from my hardware or drivers, or if this could be a settings issue.

Let me explain the situation.

Previously I was using 2 monitors. One main monitor for DCS 3d (3840x1080) and a second monitor (1920x1080) for the export of my 3 MFDS..  both monitors were set up side by side in windows, with a 144hz Refresh rate for both and the coordinates for the exports were made accordingly in the monitorsetup.lua file. All was working fine. In the FA/18C free flight mission caucasus, I am getting around 120fps in the configuration.

After I installed the MIP, I have now a different setup in windows. One main screen for DCS 3d 8stil 3840x1080) and 3 more 1024x768 monitors on the side. The main screen has a refresh rate of 144hz and the small monitors where I export the MFDs have a 60hz refresh rate (that you cannot increase) .

The issue is that now even though I get around 110fps (the whole resolution is now a tad bigger after all) the 3d images in DCS feel WAY less smooth. it more stuttery, especially when looking to the sides (3 or 9 o'clock) compared to my previous set up. Giving it more like a 60fps feeling.

I remember winwing stating that the 60hz monitors wouldnt create such issue in on of their videos when a customer raised concerns. But I also remember having the same kind of troubles in the past before I bought a 144hz (instead of 120hz) for my second monitor.

I would like to add that this difference is NOT CAUSED by SimAppPro because I have turned it off for the tests, and also, I removed any Winwing Export from the Export.lua file.  

This seems exclusively caused by the presence of the 3 monitors (or just one) from the MIP. I can also revert to the previous setup with my older second monitor, and it gets smooth again.

 

Anyone having an idea of what could be causing that ? Any fix to this that would come to mind ?

 

Honestly, the difference is noticeable. I feel bad having something stuttery despite running it from a 3090...

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by FZG_Immel

[speed-of-heat]

just out of interest what happens if you force your main monitor (s) to a multiple of 60hz ... 

[FZG_Immel]

not tried. will try 120hz. good idea

 

EDIT: nice try. No change though, unfortunately.

Edited October 21, 2022 by FZG_Immel

[speed-of-heat]

sorry m8

[markturner1960]

Hi mate, not sure if this may help, I have a similar set up, but differently configured.....I run the cube sim screens currently, soon to be replaced with the MIP I hope! With these, I run DCS at 4840 x 2160, which is my main monitor at 3840, plus the exported screens horizontally ( 800 ) = 4640 x 2160. In windows display, they are stacked down the side of the main monitor above each other. This way, the resolution demanded of DCS is kept as small as possible. I dont see why yours should not work the same way, except your resolution would be 3840 +1024 = 4864. I had to use a custom .lua file in my DCS/config/monitor setup, which I have attached, it may help but you would need to tweak to suit your screens as they are slightly larger. You need to choose the .lua file from the drop down in monitors in system settings and the right resolution ( 4864 x 2160 in your case) from the resolution options box.

 

Try that and let me know

CUBESIM-38402160RH.lua

Edited October 21, 2022 by markturner1960

[FZG_Immel]

I will try this. Thanks a lot !

 

My only fear is that this doesnt come from a resolution standpoint, but from a refresh rate standpoint. I was hoping this wouldnt be an issue because the question was specifically asked in the Winwing Q&A and confirmed to NOT be an issue, but fact is, it is for me right now.

Do you know more about all your monitors refresh rate ?  I am affraid that if someone had the issue from the get go, and never had it smooth as it should properly be, maybe they would miss it

Edited October 21, 2022 by FZG_Immel

[markturner1960]

Both my main monitor and the cubesim screens are 60hz and it all works perfectly for me......

[FZG_Immel]

oh ok. but at 60hz your fps are capped at 60 anyway.. so I suspect what you deem perfect is what I feel stuttery, after being used to the smoothness of playing at 120fps..

even though your counter shows more than 60fps, if you are playing with 60hz monitor, you arent seeing more than 60.

at 7.45 in this video is exactly the point that was made. I hope winwing understood the question and answered accordingly.

 

 

[Guppy]

Having had multiple setups in the past between 4 to even 8 separate monitors... I can tell you that you always want to keep your refresh rates as multiples of each other. For instance if 60hz is your lowest frequency of all of your monitors then you either want to tailor your fastest monitor down to 60 or it's next multiple of 120. Using a 60 and a 144 will cause stuttering. This is not a DCS thing but any application than spans multiple monitors.

Also turn off g/v sync type settings if they are enabled. I have only found more issues when trying to use gsync/freesync/vsync on 1 monitor but not all.

[FZG_Immel]

Cant increase the small ones to 120. but I can reduce to main one to 120 from 144hz. this is what i did, but didnt notice any difference. 

Also, my Vsync is always off. hot using any Gsync freesync etc. but will double check. thanks

[markturner1960]

I know stuttery Immel and mine is butter smooth......the human eye cant detect more than 60 anyway, so thats a moot point!

Have you tried my suggestion? 

Edited October 21, 2022 by markturner1960

[FZG_Immel]

I believe you mark. So maybe its just an issue with MY hardware, depending on the simulator. Or maybe windows 10 doesnt manage that well compare to lets say 11.. I dont know.

But, sorry to say that Mark but it is wrong to say you cant see the diff from 60 to 120fps. Of course the human eye can detect the difference between 60 fps or 120 fps on a computer, because these are average. I can even detect the difference in between 90 or 120.. over 120 it become harder, of course. 

without entering in too many details, you can detect it because your 60 fps isnt one image every 1/60th of a second perfectly. Its an average.. it can be 1 image in 30/60th of a second and 59 images in 30/60th of a second afterward.. In which case it will still be 60FPS AVERAGE, BUT you eye will have detected the slowing down and stuttering. That's why the MORE FPS the better as it always feel/looks like. more real and smoother.

 

Yes, thank you. I have tried your suggestion, to no avail, unfortunately. I put the MFDS in windows on the side, below, in a square etc. No changes,

 

I have also tried a LOT of different things. I have set my main monitor to 120FPS, both in the monitor menu setting, and in windows. No change.

What is noticeable is that the mere presence of them extra monitors in windows doesnt change anything per se, as if I load a Monitor setup of 1 screen (DCS 3d) with only the resolution of the main monitor, while keeping sim app open, and the winwing Export.LUA lines that export the MFDs (meaning both the CPU and graphic card are working on it) its still butter smooth.

But I soon as DCS start using the main monitor in conjuction with the MIP monitors, the feeling of smoothness is totally gone. it feels jaggy or stuttery. FPS dont change all that much, its just the feeling that is kinda bad to be honest. Especially when you go to smooth to stuttery. I could probably get used to it, but its a shame.

This was my main fear before purchasing the MIP, but the answer of Sidney in the Winwing Q&A session kinda conviced me they had solved the issue. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by FZG_Immel

[FZG_Immel]

I am now about 100% sure this issue comes from refresh rates that are different. and a bit bummed at the moment. I am torn in between displaying the MFDs with no smoothness, or no MFDs with a buttersmooth experience.

the impression I get is that the 60hz monitors from winwing are capping everything to 60hz. thing is, if you havent have played at 120 or 144hz before, you wouldnt really realise

I will wait for someone to confirm how it is for them. but to notice the difference they will have to also run a 1 screen monitor setup with only their main screen resolution, and compared both

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by FZG_Immel

[FZG_Immel]

makes me think of somethign related here

 

[Guppy]

There have been reported issues over the years using the SimApp Pro. Are you able to run the monitors with DCS overlayed on them without SAP running? If so that is worth a try to see if the cause of the FPS loss and stuttering is due to those external processes or as a result of the screens themselves.

Since those screens are read by windows you can do the oldfashioned way of setting them up to try this by modifying the monitor lua files.

[prestonflying]

One idea is to try quantifying the stutter you are seeing. Kinda related to ^^ above post. 
I like to use: https://www.capframex.com/

Run DCS with the full F18 MIP setup., then run capframex, and look at the cpu frame times. It'll break down if there is stutter in the cpu frame time or if this might a result of different screen refresh rates like you linked above. Try repeating this test with no MFD screens being exported (disconnect usb and reboot DCS)

If the frames look smooth and flat, this indicates a display issue.

If the frames look jitter and spikey, this indicates an external process/SimApp Pro/etc effecting performance of the machine.

Edited October 21, 2022 by prestonflying

[FZG_Immel]

4 hours ago, Guppy said:

There have been reported issues over the years using the SimApp Pro. Are you able to run the monitors with DCS overlayed on them without SAP running? If so that is worth a try to see if the cause of the FPS loss and stuttering is due to those external processes or as a result of the screens themselves.

Since those screens are read by windows you can do the oldfashioned way of setting them up to try this by modifying the monitor lua files.

As I wrote before sim app pro is not in question, nor is the export. I can run sim app pro and the export lines in the export.lua as long as my DCs resolution only include my main monitor and not the winwing monitors, the game is butter smooth. I can even play with the UFC and the UFC displays are working- all is fine and smooth Even though the winwing monitor are plugged and active in windows.
 

But As soon as those winwing monitors are included in the DCS whole resolution, then the stutters appears and smoothness is gone.

 

 

3 hours ago, prestonflying said:

One idea is to try quantifying the stutter you are seeing. Kinda related to ^^ above post. 
I like to use: https://www.capframex.com/

Run DCS with the full F18 MIP setup., then run capframex, and look at the cpu frame times. It'll break down if there is stutter in the cpu frame time or if this might a result of different screen refresh rates like you linked above. Try repeating this test with no MFD screens being exported (disconnect usb and reboot DCS)

If the frames look smooth and flat, this indicates a display issue.

If the frames look jitter and spikey, this indicates an external process/SimApp Pro/etc effecting performance of the machine.

 

I will try but I a almost 100% sure this is refresh rate related and not cpu bound- because without the monitors included in the full dcs resolution, but still having the ufc working and it’s displays working, all is fine 

 

thanks to both of you with your input. much appreciated. Until other people get this stuff and I have something to compare, i am a bit at loss.

 

I dont know if this frame rate issue only exists in windows 10 and not windows 11

Edited October 21, 2022 by FZG_Immel

[markturner1960]

Hi Immel, I am sorry its proving an issue ...I had hoped my suggestion would do the trick! Mine will hopefully arrive next week, so I will let you know how it gets on and how I set mine up. 

I run this monitor: https://www.philips.co.uk/c-p/436M6VBPAB_00/momentum-4k-hdr-display-with-ambiglow  and DCS runs beautifully  on it. I dont check FPS to be honest, just crank all the settings up and it just works! Even at the 4640 resolution. Although my GPU is more pokey than yours, but I have zero stutters with it all at 60hz......

You could try using a different monitor to see how it works ? Or running DCS at that resolution, but without the MIP connected? 

Good luck! 

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by markturner1960

[Guppy]

17 hours ago, FZG_Immel said:

As I wrote before sim app pro is not in question, nor is the export. I can run sim app pro and the export lines in the export.lua as long as my DCs resolution only include my main monitor and not the winwing monitors, the game is butter smooth. I can even play with the UFC and the UFC displays are working- all is fine and smooth Even though the winwing monitor are plugged and active in windows.
 

But As soon as those winwing monitors are included in the DCS whole resolution, then the stutters appears and smoothness is gone.

Have you run DCS across all monitors WITHOUT SAP running? That's what I'm asking. It was not clear in your initial post and subsequent responses that you had DCS running across all monitors without SAP and exports disabled. For a period of time when I had IKARUS running (a export UI tool for gauges) this was an issue, for different reasons... but it's something to confirm if you have not had DCS and it's exports across all screens without SAP running.

To me, it sounded like you ran DCS on your main monitor with SAP running and therefor concluded SAP is not in question because it only lags when it's across all of your monitors. My recommendation is shut off SAP, and all export lines of code and run DCS across all your monitors and see if that at least identifies 1) export.lua is causing issues or 2) SAP is causing issues. You cant conclusively say SAP or export.lua is not the issue until you have done this. Maybe you have, but it was not immediately clear to me.

Secondly, reading above it sounds like the lowest you brought your monitor down to is 120hz. Try making everything 60hz and see if that eliminates the micro stutters you are experiencing. I don't think you are experiencing a "non smooth experience" just because your frames are theoretically going down to 60. I believe you're likely experiencing micro stutters, which is something that does occur when running DCS in this type of configuration when there is some sort of conflict. Your description of looking off to the sides and really noticing this makes that pretty conclusive to me that you're experiencing micro stutters. Try 60hz across all and see if it cleans things up a bit.

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by Guppy

[Guppy]

Something else you might consider is try only running a single WW monitor at a time + Main monitor. See if the issue persists for each one. If the issue occurs for all 3 (or doesnt) you might be able to identify a potential hardware problem.

Another idea is to ONLY run DCS off your WW monitors. If you have your main monitor turned off and just use WW monitors does the issue persist? This will further help you identify if the issue is a frequency issue across all or an issue related to the WW monitors.

Are you running your WW monitors off a USB HUB? Try dedicating a USB hub only to those monitors without daisy chaining if you can. Is the HUB powered? Does it have a shorter extension to the PC? All things to consider when using USB monitors.

Have you tried running a different game across all monitors to see if you get the same issue? You should be able to launch most games and have it expand across all monitors. It might look odd but you'll be able to notice whether or not there are micro stutters occurring, too.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Guppy

[FZG_Immel]

Thanks for the answers guys. It is helpful and comforting having the impression of not facing this all alone

 

yes, I have ran dcs on all monitors with SimAppPro completely off and even with the export lines in the export.lua removed.

it is still stutters and not smooth.

and that is because a 60hz refresh rate makes any game less smooth than a monitor at 120 or 144hz.

on the contrary I have ran DCS on my main monitor at 144hz, with that monitor resolution only, with sim app pro launched and the export working, and it’s buttery smooth at at a 144hz refresh rate. 

running DCS on my main monitor only at 60hz with no winwing monitor connected is stuttery and not smooth as well. Just the same as running my main monitor at 120 or 144hz with the small winwing monitors included in the DCS resolution.  
 

What happens is that DCS then goes to the refresh rate of the smaller refresh rate included. And DCS in 60hz is stuttery and not smooth like it is in 144hz. Especially with speed when you look on the side. Especially with a ultra wide monitor. 

I knew this used to be a problem in the past and it forced me to buy a second monitor in 144h for my exports a couple years ago.

what bothers me a little is that this very question was specifically asked in the Winwing Q&A about the MIP and they said this was not as issue anymore. So i assumed they had fixed the issue while using usb monitors or something by but apparently this isn’t the case. That’s my main complaint.

I will be waiting for feedbacks from others, but if there isn’t a fix I will have to buy a bigger monitor in 144hz for my exports and adapt a solution to placate the winwing bezels on it and NOT USE the winwing monitors at all. 

kinda shame because they look nice and work well. But they being 60hz and forcing everything else in 60hz is a big issue. And according to winwing it was fixed. 

 

 

Ps , I am running a EVGA 3090 and a Intel I9 at 5ghz with 32gb of ram. 

Edited October 22, 2022 by FZG_Immel

[FZG_Immel]

I have not tried only 1 wining monitor at a time included in the DCS resolution.

 

will try that next. 

Edited October 22, 2022 by FZG_Immel

[Guppy]

Got it -- if you're experiencing this issue with only your main monitor running DCS at 60hz then that is the issue. My guess is that your main monitor doesn't like that frequency.

I believe if you went with a main monitor that was capped at 120hz you would not experience this issue.

Below I included a picture of my old simpit. I have 3 monitors @ 60hz and my main monitor @ 120hz. It's a Samsung Odyssey. I had no issues in this configuration and like you I am very particular about getting great frames and smoothness.

Previously to this I had a 34" that was at 144hz if I recall (or higher) and it frequently caused micro stutters.

If you can get your hands on a monitor that is capped at 120hz you might be able to narrow down this issue.

[FZG_Immel]

It would be a shame though because I really like my Samsung 49” ultra wide. 
 

it’s resolution is still 3840x1089 (HD) so it isn’t a hog on performance either 

 

i have forced my main monitor to be capped at 120hz (through the monitor menu, not windows) but it  hasn’t helped unfortunately. 
 

very nice pit btw !

Edited October 22, 2022 by FZG_Immel

[FZG_Immel]

in the meantime i think im going  to try using this solution as I have a spare PC just beside the one I use..  

http://pw-developer.com/soft_dcs_mfd.html

since the data will be drawn by another PC, and the DCS resolution will be virtual and will not include any real extra monitor, it should fix my issue, temporarily.

I am a bit scared about the 25frames per second exported on the MFDS, especially in FLIR and other 3D application, but at least my game should remain smooth and I can benefit from using the nice winwing monitors.