Warbirds

[Ramon767]

So I've been enjoying some of the WW2 modules, but I'm curious about a couple of things:

The first is that CSU RPM has no bearing on overall speed, which is not quite right, it doesn't seem to matter what RPM you set, you can get to top speed and vice versa.

Second would be what the gun harmonisation distance is set to, it'd be a nice thing to be able to change that. 

Lastly, and I'm not sure if any of the modules would normally have a manually set mixture control, but are we missing the ability to change mixture? 

   

[grafspee]

I will comment on mixture topic. Dcs spitfire is equipped with  injection type carb with automatic mixture. So pilot has no ability to control mixture manually, we have mixture cut out for shutting engine off and run position for every else. Same with p51, p47 has 2 position mixture for operation auto lean and auto rich, but no intermediate positions are avilable. Spitfire's carb will lean mixture automatically depend on power settings of the engine. 

Can you elaborate how rpm not affecting top speed.

Edited October 31, 2022 by grafspee

[Ala13_ManOWar]

1 hour ago, Ramon767 said:

So I've been enjoying some of the WW2 modules, but I'm curious about a couple of things:

The first is that CSU RPM has no bearing on overall speed, which is not quite right, it doesn't seem to matter what RPM you set, you can get to top speed and vice versa.

Second would be what the gun harmonisation distance is set to, it'd be a nice thing to be able to change that. 

Lastly, and I'm not sure if any of the modules would normally have a manually set mixture control, but are we missing the ability to change mixture? 

   

First, I haven't the faintest what CSU means here. Yes RPM selection is related to speed of the aircraft itself, but it's not the only thing getting you there. Without manifold pressure you would have no speed at all, that's because all the aircraft we have here boast a constant speed propeller, and that's how it works to keep the more optimal engine performance without headaches and any further management. The day we have a fixed speed prop, or variable pitch prop, you'll notice (and you won't be happy with the extra workload).

Second, gun harmonization (at least you didn't talk about "convergence", that's new, thanks ), was somewhat standardised at factory, those were the best values determined by manufacturers, and despite old games featuring that as a thing, it wasn't a thing actually for 99,999% of the pilots, since we are 99,999% of the pilots and not top aces in command of a unit, you and we all are set at factory standards which anyway is the most optimal setting for the guns. It takes some while to adapt to them but I can tell you they work since most people complaining about convergence here are there only due to bad aiming and ill firing technique, proven by tracks any time they come to these forums to complain about it. One might think all the shots got there, then again you analyse the track and no shots were put at target. No, it's not planned to include any harmonization option in the game, as there were no option for real pilots but be set at factory settings and learn proper firing.

Third, they do have mixture controls, but the ones we have actually boast automatic mixture controls, either P-51, Spit, P-47, Bf109 and Fw190s. There are mixture controls but why would you want to change that if auto mixture does it for you and way better than you?

Edited October 31, 2022 by Ala13_ManOWar

[Art-J]

CSU - constant speed unit.

About guns, I wouldn't be so harsh about all complaining folks - some of them talk about box pattern rather than point convergence and I'd say they're right, 'cause the former would be more accurate for "our" depicted period than the latter. I agree about lack of adjustment option, though.

[71st_AH Rob]

I agree with all the above about RPM, mixture and harmonization, however, while I am usually one of the first to attempt to educate people complaining about the lack of ability to set 'convergence' and make all the valid points above; different standard harmonization patterns were available.  

I would like to see the option in the mission editor to select from preset patterns for ground attack or air to air so the mission designer can set it up as he intends.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

45 minutes ago, Art-J said:

CSU - constant speed unit.

About guns, I wouldn't be so harsh about all complaining folks - some of them talk about box pattern rather than point convergence and I'd say they're right, 'cause the former would be more accurate for "our" depicted period than the latter. I agree about lack of adjustment option, though.

No harshness intended at all, just a description of a thing quite commonly seen here. I don't blame them for trying to "aim" better, but if they think changing a hypothetical convergence they would get better results, well I don't think so. True that DCS features a "different" gun ballistics than other games out there, but if something for my taste it's just more natural and easily used and "understood" than those other titles. So I wouldn't really understand why some people's obsession (not OP, who only mentioned it and probably just read some comments somewhere from those) with a "convergence" as the source of all their problems. Since it's a more natural ballistic you just have to pay attention to real life, sincerely quite easier for me instead of learning a fake parallel universe ballistics . I just said that, get used to DCS ballistics and harmonization and it really works and pays off for the effort (if it really is an effort for anyone).

[Skewgear]

9 hours ago, Ramon767 said:

So I've been enjoying some of the WW2 modules, but I'm curious about a couple of things:

The first is that CSU RPM has no bearing on overall speed, which is not quite right, it doesn't seem to matter what RPM you set, you can get to top speed and vice versa.

Second would be what the gun harmonisation distance is set to, it'd be a nice thing to be able to change that. 

Lastly, and I'm not sure if any of the modules would normally have a manually set mixture control, but are we missing the ability to change mixture? 

   

CSU speed selection will affect top speed. It's a question of balancing boost vs RPM for the situation you're in. High RPM gives better acceleration when you open the throttle (increase boost) but increases fuel consumption. At lower RPM settings (say 2650) you'll find the Spitfire very slowly accelerates to around 270mph IAS.

Guns are harmonised in a spot pattern to a fraction over 300yds. The gunsight range/wingspan setting is accurate and works as designed. I have it in my head that the guns should be zeroed to a group pattern at 250yds but I need to visit the National Archives to find the Armament Staff Instruction that applied to 2TAF in June/July 1944.

As mentioned above the Spitfire carburettor automatically sets mixture. The big red cockpit lever is basically an on/off switch for fuel flow.

[grafspee]

If it comes to rpm, those engines are equipped with supercharger driven by crankshaft, and power out put depends on alt too. When you are using low MAP let say 30 inch and you set 3000 rpm at low alt. Supercharger is operated at max speed becouse engine rpm is 3000, so supercharger power requirements are very high and this lost power won't get to the prop. If you lower rpm in that case supercharger power draw will drop so power on the prop shaft will increase, so in some cases you may fly faster at lower rpm. This is why that if you operate engine at low mp you reduce rpm, you gain fuel economy with no lose of performance. P51's supercharger can put out 67' at 3000rpm at 8000ft at deck it could do more so in theory if you fly at deck you dont need 3000rpm to get 67' so by reducing rpm a little bit you may gain on this in terms of speed. Quetion is, can engine take that power setting.

Edited November 2, 2022 by grafspee

[Ramon767]

On 10/31/2022 at 9:49 PM, Ala13_ManOWar said:

First, I haven't the faintest what CSU means here. Yes RPM selection is related to speed of the aircraft itself, but it's not the only thing getting you there. Without manifold pressure you would have no speed at all, that's because all the aircraft we have here boast a constant speed propeller, and that's how it works to keep the more optimal engine performance without headaches and any further management. The day we have a fixed speed prop, or variable pitch prop, you'll notice (and you won't be happy with the extra workload).

CSU is about the only common descriptor of this. Its not variable pitch, as such, they are different. And you dont leave the speed the same throughout all phases of flight, so i'm pretty happy managing it. The point is that at lower RPM, higher speed is a result, and vice versa, but DCS doesn't function like that. Adding MAP is so obvious as to not require a mention.   

Second, gun harmonization (at least you didn't talk about "convergence", that's new, thanks ), was somewhat standardised at factory, those were the best values determined by manufacturers, and despite old games featuring that as a thing, it wasn't a thing actually for 99,999% of the pilots, since we are 99,999% of the pilots and not top aces in command of a unit, you and we all are set at factory standards which anyway is the most optimal setting for the guns. It takes some while to adapt to them but I can tell you they work since most people complaining about convergence here are there only due to bad aiming and ill firing technique, proven by tracks any time they come to these forums to complain about it. One might think all the shots got there, then again you analyse the track and no shots were put at target. No, it's not planned to include any harmonization option in the game, as there were no option for real pilots but be set at factory settings and learn proper firing.

Never heard of convergence, probably because its not a thing. But pilots were able to adjust harmonisation. For example at the start of the Battle of Britain, a standard range was 400 yards as that was considered optimal, but not too far along people were setting it to 200 yards, and potentially less.  

Third, they do have mixture controls, but the ones we have actually boast automatic mixture controls, either P-51, Spit, P-47, Bf109 and Fw190s. There are mixture controls but why would you want to change that if auto mixture does it for you and way better than you?

Two things here, if you read my comment I say "if we are missing" manual mixture control. 

Secondly, there is probably no better way to adjust carburettor mixture than manually and there are a number of reasons for that. 

 

On 10/31/2022 at 9:49 PM, Ala13_ManOWar said:

 

 

On 11/1/2022 at 5:12 AM, Skewgear said:

CSU speed selection will affect top speed. It's a question of balancing boost vs RPM for the situation you're in. High RPM gives better acceleration when you open the throttle (increase boost) but increases fuel consumption. At lower RPM settings (say 2650) you'll find the Spitfire very slowly accelerates to around 270mph IAS.

Guns are harmonised in a spot pattern to a fraction over 300yds. The gunsight range/wingspan setting is accurate and works as designed. I have it in my head that the guns should be zeroed to a group pattern at 250yds but I need to visit the National Archives to find the Armament Staff Instruction that applied to 2TAF in June/July 1944.

As mentioned above the Spitfire carburettor automatically sets mixture. The big red cockpit lever is basically an on/off switch for fuel flow.

My statement was more along the lines of: CSU speed doesn't affect top speed greatly in DCS, unlike in a real aeroplane. On harmonisation, it'd be nice to try say 200 yards.

[Ramon767]

On 11/1/2022 at 1:43 AM, Ala13_ManOWar said:

No harshness intended at all, just a description of a thing quite commonly seen here. I don't blame them for trying to "aim" better, but if they think changing a hypothetical convergence they would get better results, well I don't think so. True that DCS features a "different" gun ballistics than other games out there, but if something for my taste it's just more natural and easily used and "understood" than those other titles. So I wouldn't really understand why some people's obsession (not OP, who only mentioned it and probably just read some comments somewhere from those) with a "convergence" as the source of all their problems. Since it's a more natural ballistic you just have to pay attention to real life, sincerely quite easier for me instead of learning a fake parallel universe ballistics . I just said that, get used to DCS ballistics and harmonization and it really works and pays off for the effort (if it really is an effort for anyone).

It sounded harsh, but I'm not concerned. On harmonisation, I don't need it, I get excellent results. I didn't just read it somewhere, I've just always wondered why in such a game aimed towards accuracy that these things aren't covered. That said, I'd be deadlier than ever with a 200 yard "convergence".

On 10/31/2022 at 9:47 PM, grafspee said:

I will comment on mixture topic. Dcs spitfire is equipped with  injection type carb with automatic mixture. So pilot has no ability to control mixture manually, we have mixture cut out for shutting engine off and run position for every else. Same with p51, p47 has 2 position mixture for operation auto lean and auto rich, but no intermediate positions are avilable. Spitfire's carb will lean mixture automatically depend on power settings of the engine. 

Can you elaborate how rpm not affecting top speed.

 

In DCS, reduced CSU RPM doesn't result in a higher top speed or vice versa. That's a bit skewy. 

[Ala13_ManOWar]

11 minutes ago, Ramon767 said:

My statement was more along the lines of: CSU speed doesn't affect top speed greatly in DCS, unlike in a real aeroplane. On harmonisation, it'd be nice to try say 200 yards.

What I mentioned, well it does, of course it does, but rpm setting alone can't make the trick, MP gives you the power to do so, not the rpm.

[grafspee]

40 minutes ago, Ramon767 said:

 

In DCS, reduced CSU RPM doesn't result in a higher top speed or vice versa. That's a bit skewy. 

Actually it does, at least last time i checked, but don't expect difrences being big. Depends on engine prop type alt, many variables are involved. You may gain 1mph by doing so.

Can you tell us which real plare are you refering to?

Edited November 3, 2022 by grafspee

[Ramon767]

1 hour ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

What I mentioned, well it does, of course it does, but rpm setting alone can't make the trick, MP gives you the power to do so, not the rpm.

I didn't say anywhere that it did, but that's really quite obvious. You could have also said that without petrol and a higher CSU rpm it wont go faster either.

52 minutes ago, grafspee said:

Actually it does, at least last time i checked, but don't expect difrences being big. Depends on engine prop type alt, many variables are involved. You may gain 1mph by doing so.

Can you tell us which real plare are you refering to?

 

Pretty much any real plane with a CSU I guess. Changing gear to cruise RPM usually gives you the last 10-20 knots. Certainly even training for EFATO, pulling the CSU knob gives you a bit more speed, its quite marked.

56 minutes ago, grafspee said:

Actually it does, at least last time i checked, but don't expect difrences being big. Depends on engine prop type alt, many variables are involved. You may gain 1mph by doing so.

Can you tell us which real plare are you refering to?

 

A few I can think of: C210, M20, Baron, etc.

[grafspee]

@Ramon767 maybe cyvilian planes are rigged difrently take note that max speed is a little higher then cruise speed. And another important thing is that in war time fighters pilot would never pull rpm down before throttle. That would be abnormal procedure 

Edited November 3, 2022 by grafspee

[Skewgear]

2 hours ago, Ramon767 said:

 

 

My statement was more along the lines of: CSU speed doesn't affect top speed greatly in DCS, unlike in a real aeroplane. On harmonisation, it'd be nice to try say 200 yards.

At max continuous the Spitfire will settle around 270mph IAS. Top speed is 320mph IAS.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

2 hours ago, Ramon767 said:

I didn't say anywhere that it did, but that's really quite obvious. You could have also said that without petrol and a higher CSU rpm it wont go faster either.

Then again, you can explain what on Earth you meant with your statement and specially what's your point, or otherwise you're just plain wrong saying nonsensical things. Do you get that if not the other obvious things I said?

On a side note, is English your first language? Maybe there's something with that and your apparent inability to explain what you're trying to.

[Ramon767]

22 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Then again, you can explain what on Earth you meant with your statement and specially what's your point, or otherwise you're just plain wrong saying nonsensical things. Do you get that if not the other obvious things I said?

On a side note, is English your first language? Maybe there's something with that and your apparent inability to explain what you're trying to.

I’m sorry that you don’t understand simple sentences, or have never heard of a CSU, or get CSUs and variable pitch  propellers mixed up. Come back to me when you know anything at all about aviation or how aeroplanes might work.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

8 minutes ago, Ramon767 said:

I’m sorry that you don’t understand simple sentences, or have never heard of a CSU, or get CSUs and variable pitch  propellers mixed up. Come back to me when you know anything at all about aviation or how aeroplanes might work.

Yeah, of course mate, of course. Never knew this was gonna take this way, for starters I was just trying to gather info about your problem. And FYI, I guess my license was a present and I had nothing to do with that. Whenever you solo an complex GA with a constant speed prop (you can cut the bull<profanity> with the CSU which I don't care names, it's a propeller mate) instead of insulting others from your armchair call me back .

Edited November 4, 2022 by Ala13_ManOWar

[Ramon767]

3 minutes ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Yeah, of course mate, of course. Never knew this was gonna take this way, for starters I was just trying to gather info about your problem. And FYI, I guess my license was a present and I had nothing to do with that. Whenever you solo an complex GA with a constant speed prop (you can cut the bull<profanity> with the CSU which I don't care names, it's a propeller mate) instead of insulting others from your armchair call me back .

 

Well no, a variable pitch propellor is not a CSU.

And a CSU is not a propellor.

I have a command instrument rating, instructor rating and a commercial pilots license. I used to fly sailplanes also.

My armchair is fairly comfy.

On 11/3/2022 at 8:50 PM, grafspee said:

@Ramon767 maybe cyvilian planes are rigged difrently take note that max speed is a little higher then cruise speed. And another important thing is that in war time fighters pilot would never pull rpm down before throttle. That would be abnormal procedure 

 

That’s dependent on the altitude and thereby the manifold pressure at the altitude where they level out.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

19 minutes ago, Ramon767 said:

Well no, a variable pitch propellor is not a CSU.

And a CSU is not a propellor.

I have a command instrument rating, instructor rating and a commercial pilots license. I used to fly sailplanes also.

My armchair is fairly comfy.

Yeah, sure, you didn't even understood anything I was asking you, or gave any answer which were game related anyway. I (not anyone here) should have to be showing off my license every time people want to show to be more than others. That kind of classist stupidity doesn't come with me, yet people still think they're special just because they could afford a fancy driver's license. I could indeed but that doesn't make me special, nor it does to others mate. One doesn't need to be special to fly a plane, just needs to have the money…

Now, is your problem game related, or RL aviation related? I think that stupid idea about you can go faster with lower pitch (which we can't control here since it's a constant speed prop) was addressed here in the past (if you think you're first to ask almost anything at these forums, you're more than naive…) and the short answer is, no, you can't. In 109 with manual control pitch you could perhaps squeeze a couple Km/H which makes no sense bearing in mind the extra workload involved and for sure absolutely useless in combat, but not in P-51 the way it is (as IRL). Are you willing to further and clearer explain what's really your problem, or you have no problem at all?

[grafspee]

@Ala13_ManOWar actually by changing CSU set rpm you are affecting prop pitch, it is balance between velocity and aoa of the blade, low rpm setting increase pitch by cost of blade velocity. So blade has parasitics and induced drag and at some sweet spot both are the lowest and here prop will make the most thrust here.

Edited November 4, 2022 by grafspee

[Ala13_ManOWar]

18 minutes ago, grafspee said:

@Ala13_ManOWar actually by changing CSU set rpm you are affecting prop pitch, it is balance between velocity and aoa of the blade, low rpm setting increase pitch by cost of blade velocity. So blade has parasitics and induced drag and at some sweet spot both are the lowest and here prop will make the most thrust here.

 

Yeah, thank you mate, didn't ever notice, I just yanked all over my playstation pad and the thing just flew…

P.S.: really guys, do you even read?

Edited November 4, 2022 by Ala13_ManOWar

[grafspee]

1 minute ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Yeah, thank you mate, didn't ever notice, I just yanked all over my playstation pad and the thing just flew…

So why did you type this in previous post that we can't change pitch in constant speed prop? We can even with out touching prop lever.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Because in a constant speed prop you DON'T change pitch, you SELECT rpm settings, and apparently now that's a problem to some people .

[grafspee]

47 minutes ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Because in a constant speed prop you DON'T change pitch, you SELECT rpm settings, and apparently now that's a problem to some people .

Ofc i agree but, lower rpm don't come from thin air. So by setting low rpm average pitch of prop through out flight is higher. So at constant MAP and speed in some way pitch can be controlled  by indirect means

Edited November 4, 2022 by grafspee